Friends, Gooners, football fans, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Wenger, not to praise him;
The evil that men do lives after them,
The good is oft interred with their bones,
So let it be with Wenger…The noble Mainstream Media
Hath told you Wenger was not ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Wenger answered it …
Here, under leave of the Mainstream Media and the rest,
For Mainstream Media is made of honourable men;
So are they all (journos, bloggers and podcasters); all honorable men.
Come I to speak in Wenger’s funeral…
He was like a friend and mentor; faithful and just to me:
But the Mainstream Media says he lacked ambition;
And the Mainstream Media are all honorable men….
He hath brought many trophies to Arsenal,
Whose glories did the general coffers fill:
Did this Wenger seem not ambitious?
When the gooners have cried, Arsene hath wept:
Surely his non-ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
Yet the Mainstream Media say he was not ambitious enough;
And the Mainstream Media is made of honourable men.
You all did see that during the barren years after building the new stadium
He was often offered bigger jobs at bigger clubs,
Which over and over he did refuse; was this loyalty or lack of ambition?
Yet the Mainstream Media says he lacked ambition;
And, sure, they are all honourable men.
I speak not to disprove what the Mainstream Media spoke,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You all did love him once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then to mourn for him?
O judgement! thou art fled to brutish beasts and to the Mainstream Media,
And men have lost their reason…. Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with Wenger,
And I must pause till it come back to me.
Shotta’s heart was in the coffin with Wenger but has now completed his passage through the seven stages of grief and looks forward to the reign of the King being followed by the rule of the Prince, el capitan, Mikel Arteta. All who agree, say Aye!
Positively Arsenal 
maybe Arsenal should have gone for Xabi Alonso
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if PV4 comes in as boss, will he if things go well hawk himself to the highest bidder, any big club that will pay him the big bucks. Arteta as a player took a pay cut to come to Arsenal.
Pep shipped out PV4 from Man City when he took over and brought in Arteta, I wonder what he saw in the two of them to make that decision
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Aye Aye… Arteta…. Come On Arsenal!
I enjoyed that… LOL… The MSM really came to bury AW not to praise him!
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Shard
As you said there is nothing tangible for Arteta as managirial experience saying what you can do and doing what needs to be done in the heat of a season is something different. Robbie Savage has not the worst principles in football but as we all know he is all talk.
I know it seems that I would prefer Vieira simply because there is evidence of his philosophy , style and perseverance. There is evedence of his improvement of youth and mature players.
Ed
If you are someone who is still talking about someone leaving for more money or be tempted by more money, Arsenal then is not what Arsenal is now, you know that .Patrick Vieira had a lot to do with how this club is percieved throughout the world now.
What is there that says if Arteta is sucessful and Barcelona come in for him he would not leave to say he has ‘Unfinished business ‘ there. It’s all in the game.
As for believing that Pep ‘Ran’ Vieira out of City , Where did you get your evidence for that if you could supply some sort of link to the article I would love to read it.
Arteta would be in more need to sit next to Pep as Vieira was further down the coaching education road, so there is no need for him to sit there, Vieira by then need to make his coaching ‘Bones’
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ED
As for believing that Pep ‘Ran’ Vieira out of City , Where did you get your evidence for that?
If you could supply some sort of link to the article I would love to read it.
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Come on Mikel, come and coach Messi with a £500 million pound budget
What do you think Mikel would say Ed?
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Tony Pulis v John Terry
It’s been a tricky watch
Hopefully Fulham will win the game at Wembley
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wwwb where is your evidence that PV4 needed to leave man city, or even wanted to.
of course we don’t know if arteta takes over at AFC that he would not jump at a job offer from Barcelona or even city, but we do know that he took a pay cut to join us as a player, while PV4 when our captain pushed for 3 years to leave us for a bigger pay day. So I ask which is more likely to have it within their character to jump ship for a bigger pay day if they were our manager.
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Wwwb
Any appointment is a risk.
That risk is managed by considering various factors. Experience is one such factor. But it is not the only factor. On the basis of experience, we should hire Harry Redknapp or David Moyes.
So..What would Vieira bring to the team? What is his philosophy? In what ways has he improved the players? What is the reason they haven’t won the league? Why haven’t they performed in the playoffs? What budget does he operate under (I know there are salary rules) If you’re arguing for Vieira surely it is not enough for you to just dismiss Arteta?
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so its fulham or aston villa in the BPL next season.
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As tempted by every big club in world football (Not a problem that Mikle Arteta never had to deal with whilst playing for Arsenal)
Patrick Vieira STAYED UNTIL ARSENAL SOLD HIM AT A PROFIT!
Just in case everyone forgot how it finished
Vieira moaned like a drain, because he was a winner and he wanted to win.
But HE STAYED, ARSENAL SOLD HIM.
AT A PROFIT!
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Hopefully Arteta will be successful, very successful, and should Barca come knocking and he chooses to go, we will have a very modern structure with a succession plan, Maitland Niles will hopefully be ready to manage when that day comes!
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Shard
At no time have I dismissed Arteta, I am just have no reason to go to the church of Arteta. I have no evidence to believe in it, there is nothing there.
There is something with Vieira, I am not at the church of Vieira but I have seen what he has got to offer .
As for the fact he has some failings, to me that is great at least I can see what he is trying to do .if you have any interest you will find it, it is not hidden.
Arteta there is nothing and all his learning is going to be done at Arsenal .
It is not easy and every appointment is a gamble but I have no ‘Stress Test’ of Arteta at any level. There is for Vieira
So Shard your argument only fortifies my point.
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Santi Caz in the coaching team, interesting. Was hoping he could play again but if not to be , and he can transfer his unique skills and love of the game to others, could certainly work. Also a few rumours on Alonso, no idea how valid they are, but seems like there could be a few coaching vacancies to fill.
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Eh? If your point is experience then ok. But I asked you what Vieira does with this experience that suggests to you that he will be a good manager for Arsenal. Don’t you get it? I want to be convinced. I want to be converted. I want to be excited about Vieira’s potential arrival as well.
As for ‘evidence’ and ‘evaluation’. Come on. Most of us know next to nothing about how these guys work and what their job actually entails. The people at the club will know.
We make up our minds about these things from gut and emotion, backed up by the merest hint of information. If you still can’t understand, despite the information, why people may be excited about Arteta, then I’m afraid you’re approaching this the wrong way.
As far as experience goes, I think actual training ground work and a vision for the current squad is more important for Arsenal than a year or two spent managing at a lower level. Why? Because the club have structures in place to support the manager in other areas. Also, Arteta is not a stranger to the club. He knows how things work within the club, how to deal with the media. It wouldn’t be an entirely alien environment to him.
And while being the main man at a club has something to say for it, I would say spending the past two seasons coaching at a top PL club under one of the best managers in the game also has something going for it.
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eduardo792
wwwb where is your evidence that PV4 needed to leave man city, or even wanted to.
I am not sure what this even means. I will try to break it down the best I can
He had already been an embassador, then Youth team administator then youth team coach for City. City had the NYCFC project going that need leadership a good opportunity.
Do you not think that is a good opportunity Ed?
of course we don’t know if arteta takes over at AFC that he would not jump at a job offer from Barcelona or even city, but we do know that he took a pay cut to join us as a player, while PV4 when our captain pushed for 3 years to leave us for a bigger pay day. So I ask which is more likely to have it within their character to jump ship for a bigger pay day if they were our manager.
Ed you are wrong and right , wrong about him having to push for more money he did not need to as the biggest clubs in the world wanted to pay him more than Arsenal would be willing to pay him. Unless you think that Vieira was not good enough to get the money he was being paid or he did not put in a effort.
Arteta has never been pursued by the biggest clubs in the world so if there is a chance to play for one of the biggest clubs in the world (Which he got make up pay later on in the season) he would just like Cesc when he went to Barca take a pay cut to make it happen.
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I’m with you about Vieira’s loyalty as a player though Wwwb. I don’t think Vieira was especially disloyal to us. He was the best midfielder in the world and just generated more interest. And he stayed. He’s an Arsenal legend. He’s also been respectful of the club after he left.
But for me, the very journey you state for Vieira’s coaching career makes me think of him as a ManCity man rather than an Arsenal man. He retired while playing for them, and then joined their youth team as coach and is now at their club in the US.
Arteta meanwhile joined us and steadied the ship, broke our trophy drought(TM) which lasted since Vieira left. And then joined Pep Guardiola to further his coaching education. Both are at ManCity, but as of now, Arteta is still an Arsenal man. Vieira, unfortunately, isn’t.
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only thing is wwwb PV4 pushed to go, got the chance to go to Real Madrid, the top team in Spain at the time, but cos they would not give him super star wages he turned them down, so it was about money not to win more trophies
so PV had gone from ambassador to admin to an actual youth coach, but Man City who were looking for assistant coaches for Pep, moved him out to NYCFC, and hired in Arteta for the role instead,
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Shard
I have no extra evidence to prove Vieira would be a better appoointment than Arteta apart from following closely his coaching career from Youth football to America.
My actual job is testing
Testing all sorts from IT network testing.
Load testing , Stess and System testing
Any banking system be it trading platfrom or a simple app for ordering dinner in the restaurant has to been tested, it will not be let out into the live environment unless it has been.
Firstly off-line then in a series of tests which have to planned out before hand.
I mention this because Arteta has not faced any sort of Load or Stess testing . Sitting beside a great coach is no way of testing himself.
Arsenal should not be the place where that happens
No one will care if he has in infrastructure around him if he falters or shows any weakness. At a club like Arsenal the is no coming back from that once the players see it.
I can tell you this from my work experience not untill you put the app in an live enviroment are you able to see it work. No matter how many things we test how acurately and dynamic the test, you can never tell with 100% untill the app is live.
Arsenal want to develop young players, Mr Wenger pointed out the reason coaches don’t want to play you players is because the cost points. To introduce and continue to use young players is one of the most difficult things to manage in a football club.
It is stress inducing.
All I have said is why this statement:
“As far as experience goes, I think actual training ground work and a vision for the current squad is more important for Arsenal than a year or two spent managing at a lower level. Why? Because the club have structures in place to support the manager in other areas. Also, Arteta is not a stranger to the club. He knows how things work within the club, how to deal with the media. It wouldn’t be an entirely alien environment to him.”
Is misimfromed.
As PV4 is actually working on the training ground everyday working on HIS OWN ideas, as THE MAN not as an ayudante.
He knows how things work within the club, how to deal with the media Vieira is doing as the boss.
It wouldn’t be an entirely alien environment to him nor Vieira
To try and demean what Vieira is doing as some “Lower league” is disingenuous.Because Vieira is actually doing and Arteta is sitting next to Pep.
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The Telegraph is claiming that Arsenal are close to signing defender Caglar Soyuncu from German club Freiburg, and that this is being done without consultation with any of the managerial targets. That this is the new model of operation the club will be run under, players will be brought in by Mislintat and co, and it will be up to the Head Coach to work with the players he is given.
the Telegraph also say Arteta is clear favorite for the job now and could be appointed very soon
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only thing is wwwb PV4 pushed to go, got the chance to go to Real Madrid, the top team in Spain at the time, but cos they would not give him super star wages he turned them down, so it was about money not to win more trophies
so PV had gone from ambassador to admin to an actual youth coach, but Man City who were looking for assistant coaches for Pep, moved him out to NYCFC, and hired in Arteta for the role instead.
PV does not want to be an asistant coach,he wants to be the man.
Why would he stay and sit next to Pep when he knows what he wants to do?
You are wrong and I explained it to you, so far you have said he wanted to goto Madrid and they would not give him superstar wages .
Well you would not do that in similar circumstances, I get that but you can not project yourself into someone elses position.
Why would he go to Madrid on less wages than Claude Makalele turned down?
You might do that in similar situation but I would not .
Clearly PV valued himself more.
Is that the problem his Vieira has a high opinion of himself and would not be sold cheap?
Football is a business you take it to personal.
Arsenal are not Golden remember that.
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If Vieira is a better candidate, he will be offered the job. Seems that Arteta is likely to be the one, and I’m convinced the people that actually know what they want, and who can provided that, will have considered everything we have, and a whole lot more.
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Arteta, Vieira, Enrique, Allegri, Nagelsmann, I am sure all hugely talented and capable,there are risks with all of them, as there would be with Brenton Rogers, partly because he comes across as a right tool.
It seems managing is becoming a young mans game.
Arteta is a risk, ok, not experienced as a manager but a good risk if he is to be the man. He will presumably respect the new supporting structures in place. he has worked under wenger, pep, barca, and erm, Moyes
He clearly loves Arsenal, is smart, apparently loved and rated at this seasons record breaking team.
He has done well, but not won world cups and champions leagues as a player,he may have a hunger to succeed hugely as a coach.
He is clearly a hands on coach, and will presumably be surrounded by similar.
If Bould does not stay, perhaps to coach the defence, and they are appointing from ex players, what a shame for Adams and Keown have so blotted their copy books, hope the club go nowhere near those two.
It is said MA is tactically astute, allegedly in contrast to wenger, but have never bought that opinion of Arsene
MA is young and will hopefully stick around for a while
he is very well connected and respected in the game
Some players may rate him, others may not be so keen, as with any other manager
Dont think the media have any false scandalous shite on him
and he has got pressive hair, and he could keep my favorite player on as a coach.
I expect to be drinking something smooth, red, Spanish (ok not getting into politics) and classy by Friday in his honour, but who knows there could yet be twists and turns, AFTV and their assorted minions could put them all off joining
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Wwwb
People are not ‘apps’. Apps are programmed to do something and you test whether they can do that in a working environment. As long as they do what they are supposed to, it’s great.
But with people, they evolve and adapt. They have a natural talent that can help them grow, and even exceed their ‘requirements’. Which is why, for example, we sign and play young players. So that despite teething problems, their talent can grow and help us.
Look at it this way, if Arteta really is a talented coach, we would be better off getting him in and ‘testing’ that out, rather than miss the opportunity. What’s the worst that could happen? It doesn’t work out and we get someone else in. Not much downside but potentially big upside. And despite his greater years of experience, Vieira’s CV isn’t exactly stellar either.
I didn’t mean ‘lower league’ dismissively. It’s just fact. He is still running his own team and has had offers from European clubs in the past apparently. I’m sure Vieira is a good coach.
I just disagree that Arteta’s lack of experience running the team should rule him out, especially in light of the character he’s shown as a player, and the reviews he’s getting as a coach.
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pedantic George @arseblagger
I wish that life was that simple
Shard
I gave you the benefit of the doubt that when I explained to about testing , I hoped that you would be able to understand where I think the concern lies with regards to where Arteta has an obvious weak point.
Your lack of respect towards me shows how ignornant you are and how little you want to listen and converse as an adult. If you do not realise that I as a human being who actually has to work and live with humans, would not the know the difference between a human and an app.
I will make it clear
The facts are Ateta has no experience at all of managing a team, any team at any level,is a massive gamble . So all you say, your argument has no fact based evidence at all, that shows he has the aptitude for the job. None. What you say make no sense, it is a hope at best that it works out. It’s a bigger gamble than any other option on the list of candidates.
I will debate with anyone on this site, I have never tried to talk down to anyone on this site. I am not a sheep, I am not a dissenter, I love Arsenal but I see the faults of the club. What you are basing your argument on is blind hope,I get that,but what you are trying to say makes no sense at all, you have nothing at all to your arguments, they have no merit. There is no fact based evidence
This site often waxes lyrically about Shotta when he produces his statically relevant fact based arguments which are often so compelling in the way they argued with Fact based argument with statistical argument points. You have none of this , it’s a ‘This guy says he is a good coach’. I have not seen any evidence that he is.All you can offer is Artetea sat next to Pep for however long.
Professional Gamblers,do not take uncalculated risk, it is called Risk Management,Banks are the same , they have in the main whole departments for Risk. I suggest football club as it grows and becomes a multi-national mega business needs to manage Risk as a high priority. As a business with over 700 employees plus and growing, I suggest Arsenal nearer a corporation than a football club .
I hope Arteta is a sucess, I hope that Arsenal improve next year, if he is made coach or manager, he will get my full support because I liked him as a player and was glad when he came to Arsenal.
Lets not forget when Arteta left Arsenal he deleted all his Arsenal posts from twitter and Insta.
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I’ve been involved in software and systems testing and sometimes not all parameters have been adequately expressed and something gets overlooked by lack of information provided for spec due to the wrong people providing it. Let’s just hope they make a best decision here whatever it is.
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I’ve been involved in software and systems testing and sometimes not all parameters have been adequately expressed and something gets overlooked by lack of information provided for spec due to the wrong people providing it. Let’s just hope they make a best decision here whatever it is.
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Wwwb,
It is obvious that big Pat is a massive favourite of yours rather than someone you just want to defend.
If as you say he was making noises about leaving the club as early as 2000 , the fact that he stayed doesn’t mean he was loyal just that Arsene and the club were particularly persuasive as they were with other players later on. The fact he was looking to go so early is not a feather in his cap.
ARSENAL are not looking for just a football manager but for someone to continue a project , personally I have no favourites and will support whoever but for some reason Pat doesn’t seem to fit the picture in my head. I’ve been wrong before but that’s just how I feel. I do like George trust Ivan to get it right.
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ianspace2014
I am not going to deny for good reason PV4 is a favourite, I have declared that I am a fan of Arteta as a player.
This however is about manager and coach, Markyb made a great point on testing parameters, with all the requirement gathering done, it still does not cover all the points,if you do not ask the correct questions. Untill we have user testing , (in this case coaching a team) you will not be able to see what the app is like under pressure .Invariably after testing this is a need to make changes to the app. Performance,Load and Stress testing in all aspects of Arteta’s coaching will be done at Arsenal.
Playing for Arsenal is not an easy job, the shirt is known as a ‘Heavy Shirt’ so the manager needs to be sure footed.
I disagree that the project needs to be continued , I think it needs some adjustments. They need to be made maybe subtlety but they need to be made, the team finished 6th after finishing 5th the year before, that statisticly looks like the begining of a trend.
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Ivan Gaz has done a good job so far bringing in the infrastructure to the club, I am like the rest of you will get behind the coach but I am concerned.
I wont be on here every week going at the manager
I just do not understand the reasoning or the jusification for Arteta over Vieira. I have heard them all
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WWB
We’ve been disagreeing with each other here since before George started the blog!
Happily so. I hope!
Arsenal: the house of art and craft. A manufacturing workshop. A makers space. These days some call them fablabs, but think I prefer to use the word The Arsenal! It’s not just a place or space where you measure and analyse the stuff – that’d be an observatory of sorts.
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WwwB
I know very little about your field of work but the idea of testing in football holds enduring fascination for me- often from wistful ‘if only’ perspectives.
If only we could replay it ten times (then we’d learn how best to approach it). If only we could give young player x a decent run in team (then we’d learn if he can be what I think he can); or attempt such and such formation, sticking with it long enough to get good at it; or sign certain type of player.
Sometimes the very nature of it all- a week’s work (and hopes etc), or a season’s, being tested in the 90 minute setting, featuring luck and the like, seems somehow crazy or unsatisfying (when going badly, of course), even unfair.
The ideal, to give the best chance of performing well, would be to replay the thing numerous times, learning all the while, against an opponent whose behaviour can be learned and then predicted well.
Obviously, none of that is remotely feasible. All a coach gets is their previous games, the opposition games, and work on the training pitch. That has to do.
The same thing applies to choosing managers. Would be great if there was a simulation to pop Arteta, Vieira, and others into to see how they’d get on and test them thoroughly.
Instead it’s just the old live environment. The decision makers have to do something equivalent to the fantastic and impossible real life testing of the candidates as Arsenal manager. Vieira has that advantage of having managerial experience to analyse. We can expect they’ve done that, much better than we could.
Likewise we can expect they have a far better idea about him as a person- his nature, his behaviour, his thoughts on football- than we do, specifically his suitability to exactly what we are trying to achieve and how. The same applies to Arteta. It is one thing both men have in common and which most candidates won’t have- the club knows them, really knows them, very well.
It could be as simple as that knowledge leads them to firmly believe Vieira would, in the position of our manager, not be happy unless given the funds he deems necessary to take on richer rivals. That would fit with what I read recently about him in his playing time when he was noisily unhappy (told Henry to be quiet/shut up, according to the story) about the club not making the calibre of signing he felt they had to.
Or it could be something else entirely. We have to accept, surely, there is much we don’t know and which can only be known by those working inside football for many years.
Still fine for us to form strong opinions based on what we can see- I couldn’t stop myself if I wanted to from doing so- but there is always much we are missing which could be extremely relevant to decision-making
If it’s Arteta, it seems logical that the belief in him has to be very strong, enough to overcome the disadvantage he has of not having a managerial record to offer.
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finsburyp
I can debate with anyone but if someone is going to be childish and say there is a diference between apps and humans, I think that is being disrespectful to me personally. Just because someone is in capable of being able to back their argument with reason.
I am not 6 or 16 years of age. I tried to explain my points using an analogy of my Job in a very tough high pressure environment which is Testing.
The procedures needed in a corporate environment are used to reduce risk, with 800 employees and a global reach Arsenal is much more like a corporation. Infrastructure creation has been the Gazidis mission for the last couple of years, using the assement of testing as a one of the criteria of how the club asses potential candidates for the role of Head Coach would in my opinion be essential and rational.
Gut feeling, should never be your overiding decision making tool for a coporation, if it is the business will always be ‘fighting fires’ and will have no chance at longetivity.
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Rich
The Testing could be done firstly with Youth team , you work your ‘kinks’ out in those games.
Your tactics, strategy and most importantly working with young players getting to know how they feel and react in games and a daily basis. Introducing them to the side, when to take them out so they can get a breather. All things are worked on in the youth team environment.
The added advantage is you get to see what the youth of other teams are like and maybe spot someone for the future.
Vieira has had that plus a proper team in a competitive league to manage he has been Tested.
Arteta has not it is that simple .
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It could be as simple as that knowledge leads them to firmly believe Vieira would, in the position of our manager, not be happy unless given the funds he deems necessary to take on richer rivals. That would fit with what I read recently about him in his playing time when he was noisily unhappy (told Henry to be quiet/shut up, according to the story) about the club not making the calibre of signing he felt they had to.
So this is the stick you are all going to use to beat Vieira with
Absolute rubbish
You have zero evidence of he would leave, like I have zero evidence that Arteta would stay if Barca came in for him to manage them.
Quite right he told Henry to shut up when he did, he was quite within his rights at the time.
Not like I have not seen the vast majority of people on this site say TH14 should shut up
But it is ok for the people on Positively Arsenal to tell TH14 to shut up but not Vieira.
OK I get it.
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A futher point about loyalty as a player to a football club.
You can put that loyalty thing and put it in a bag and take it home with you.
If a club don’t want you they will get rid of you so loyalty is a two-way street.
David Rocastle was more than just loyal to Arsenal Football Club but that did not stop the club from dumping him at the first opportunity.
Loyalty is for fans do not get that confused.
Jack Wilshere is not being loyal is he, if he was he would have signed that contract for £80,000 a week right?
Jack was born in Herts not that far from the training ground, he has been at Arsenal since he was 9 where is the ‘Hue and Cry’ about the Wilshere loyalty.
But the stick is out for Vieira
It’s bizzare!
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I’m not sure how we’ve ended up with this PV vs MA debate. It could end up being either or neither. Let’s just wait and see who the club choose on the basis that they know more than we see from a distance.
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passenal
It was me probably, I asked the question I think it is a worthy debate.
We on this site (Unless Eduardo is faking that accent and is actually Gazidis in desguise) have no influyence on the decision or decision making process. I noticed that the majority seemed on the site seemed comfortable in declaring Arteta as the anointed one.
I asked the question why Arteta has more supporters on this site than Vieira , as I have seen nothing in the captaincy or leadership of Arsenal or his coaching credentials, that says to me that he has more ability or devine right to the job than Vieira.
So far I have been told to read or listen what Artetea has said on how he would coach.That is not enough hence my allusion to Testing.
As I said before Robbie Savage does not have the worst ideas on football but I would not have him anywhere near Arsenal coaching.
Having great hair or looking good in a suit is not enough.
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I am comfortable with whoever the club appoint. Whoever it is it will be a difficult act to follow. As I said a few days ago while my romantic heart pines for the appointment of a young track-suited coach to be given the chance, and the time to found his new dynasty, and in 20 years time for us to be having the same conversation, my head tells me it will be a safe, experienced pair of hands.
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It is a billion £ professional business, the headhunters will have been given the brief months ago by Ivan, the shortlist provided compiled and, again as I said a little while back, whittled down to the chosen candidate, or at this stage very, very , very close to that man whose appointment is imminent.
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Oh to see that headhunters’ brief. The candidate must put on a tracksuit and run about a bit? He should wear a sharp suit at all times, even in the depths of winter? He must win the League with limited resources? He must come 4th? Top 6 is cool as long as it is done attackingly? He must knit the fanbase together? He must not mind what the fans say as they are not worth listening to? He must be inclusive and diverse? He must be young and English? He must be old and expereinced? He must be European? He must be a proven winner? He must have played at the top level? He should not have played at the top level? He must have all his badges? He should be an autocrat? He should be just one of the team? He must be like Arsene? He must not be like Arsene?
Somebody somewhere might know. I don’t.
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If I look at recent appointments at the “big 3”. Pep find it hard settling in and just made top 4, then had to dip into the Sheikh’s deep pockets. José for all his PL experience finished 6th at Manutd, despite spending heavily in his first year, in his 2nd he had to spend even more. Conte got spared CL and/or Europa. The 2nd year things went balls up.
For now Arsenal’s immediate goal would be to get back into top 4. With the January signings we showed we got a capable side, its just the away form that has been the worry. There will be no war chest to dip in, at least on the levels of the ‘big 3’.
So for any new guy the challenge would be to set aside his ego, work on earning the respect of the players for them to buy into his vision and, yes, the ‘project’. Because we won’t be able to buy our way into anything but as a group we will have to dig deep within ourselves to help build this club.
At best this Arsenal team is a 4th place team, at worst a 6th place. Who between Arteta and Vieira will show the kind of leadership now needed to take this team to the fight for 4th place? Who between the two of them will want to grow and evolve with the team and not sulk in the season or two because for not getting enough funds from the board?
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Wwwb
My intention was not to talk down to you. Of course you know apps aren’t people. By stating such an obvious fact, maybe I was trying to make a point too? That while Arteta lacks the ‘stress test’, he may have some attributes in his favour that would countermand the risk, which you were totally discounting.
Also, you asked why Arteta is preferred by most people here. Firstly, I’m sure it’s more emotional. He’s more recent and his manner of both joining and leaving us was endearing. As to the ‘logical’, we have his history, his personality, his ‘mission statement’ and his experience as a coach under Pep Guardiola. And the belief that coaching is the most important aspect for any new guy that comes in ahead of the other responsibilities.
What do we have for Vieira? We’ve never seen his team play. We don’t know his coaching philosophy, neither in words nor in practice. So what good does the fact that he’s a coach in the US do to us? Coming to coach in the PL will be a huge step up for him too.
You seem to favour him and yet apart from saying he’s managed, have nothing to back that with. “I can see what he is trying to do .if you have any interest you will find it, it is not hidden.” was your answer to me when asked. Note I didn’t take offense at that talking down. So you can see what he can do, but will not deign to share it with us and I should go look for it myself or just take your word that he is better because Arteta brings nothing.. It’s easy to misread someone’s tone on the internet. Giving me the benefit of the doubt isn’t a favour that you were willing to grant me.
I like both Arteta and Vieira. I know Vieira has managed and that counts in his favour. I know Arteta hasn’t managed but he seemingly has the aptitude and attitude for it and has apprenticed under two of the best managers in the world. He hasn’t managed a team and you say that should be enough to disqualify him from the Arsenal job. Does that about sum it up? Let’s agree to disagree if there’s nothing further to add.
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The Killing Season has started – Moyes gone, Fat Sam tidying his desk and loading his boot, Conte is on his way to the airport, Puel is hated by the Leicester fans and Watford about to do their usual Summer swap. And of course Poch has itchy feet as he contemplates a decade of austerity in N17. I think only Pep, Jurgen and Sean Dyche are the only managers in the PL who can sleep soundly this Summer.
And if The German were to win in Kiev and Zidane fail then even that might not be certain.
Cry ‘Havoc,’ and let slip the dogs of war
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LaboGoon
My thing is we have all on this site have watched the ‘Financial doping’ of City and how they solved the central defensive and full back problem. City went out and bought two more £50 million full backs and two more £50 million centre-halfs. That is not managing and finding that internal solution that Mr Wenger often spoke about. Arsenal is not that club.
I will reiterate that I will support the manager, if it is Arteta but I have concerns.
All I asked for is what has Arteta done to give everyone such confidence that he is right for the job.
Look I’ve heard that he was instumental in voicing his opinion on WS13 and the incident in the showers, where he supposidly said that WS13 should be got out of the club. I have also heard that he has taken it on himself to coach players one-on-one.
So far I have not heard one piece of justifiable evidence that says that he is a better choice than Vieira. NOT ONE. Apart from I like Arteta
Also Vieira had the temerity to value himself as a good player and other clubs saw him as such so every season they came sniffing around. No big club was looking at Arteta (apart from Arsenal) so he has never needed to speak openly about his desires for leaving Arsenal or for Arsenal to look at moving to the next level.
Now if you ask Everton supporters, they look at Arteta differently , they wanted him to stay for ever but Arteta wanted to leave. He forced his way out of Everton took a lower wage at Arsenal.
But no one on this site gives a monkeys about Everton, so wont want to see that truth.
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22 years ago the club apparently made the ‘illogical’ choice between Cruyff and Wenger.
Logic depends on input. The input we get as fans is miniscule.
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We can only wonder what would have happened if we had gone for Miljan Miljanic rather than Terry Neill – or pushed a little harder at Aberdeen’s door for BlueNose.
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Sorry Wwwb. Not specifically about Arteta or Vieira, but I must disagree on a larger point about gut feeling. I think the best decisions come from the gut. It’s not purely emotional. Not a ‘feeling’ in that sense. It comes from an informed position, and yes, experience. But purely logical decisions are often the ‘wrong’ ones.
Also, I am sorry that I offended you. That was not my intention at all.
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Andy
So Sean Dyche is off to Madrid then?
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Shard
‘That while Arteta lacks the ‘stress test’, he may have some attributes in his favour that would countermand the risk, which you were totally discounting. ‘
I have no idea what those ‘attributes’ could be and no way of knowing it there are measurables for those. Unless you know what those ‘attributes’ are.
‘Also, you asked why Arteta is preferred by most people here. Firstly, I’m sure it’s more emotional. He’s more recent and his manner of both joining and leaving us was endearing. As to the ‘logical’, we have his history, his personality, his ‘mission statement’ and his experience as a coach under Pep Guardiola. And the belief that coaching is the most important aspect for any new guy that comes in ahead of the other responsibilities.’
Thankfully you are not in charge of the process, I said that with no disrespect to you because you can not run a multi-million pound corperation on emotions, it just does not work. Arteta has NO experience of coaching a top side, any side for that matter, so how can you know if he is any good , just because he sat next to Pep, I just don’t get it.
What do we have for Vieira? We’ve never seen his team play. We don’t know his coaching philosophy, neither in words nor in practice. So what good does the fact that he’s a coach in the US do to us? Coming to coach in the PL will be a huge step up for him too.
Vieira has a body of work as a youth team coach and a coach of a team that is actually playing in a league of significance. YOU Shard know nothing of it because you have not bothered to find any of it . It is not hidden away there is plenty of information out there in text of his ideas there is Youtube footage of Vieira coaching, ineracting with his players from youth teams to NYFC. The is data on his teams, his win percentage his interviews in the US. There is video footage of his teams playing wining and losing if YOU want to go and find it.
I posted a video on this site showing how his coaching staff his players and opponents view him. If you are really interested you could find it on Youtube.
Yeah I don’t think Arteta is ready for the Arsenal job.
Vieira has done at least what most people including Pep and Zidane have done which is start with the youth teams.
I am against the appointment and will be happy to be proved wrong . As I said Arteta will get my full support (I have to keep re-emphasising this point) I willnot be on here each going in on the players.
I just don’t get why people are so confident that it is the right appointment.
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