Today a guest post from The Beck.
Last night, the Telegraph released an interview with Jack Wilshere. He was speaking to the infamous/famous Henry Winter about his views on the possibility of Adnan Januzaj representing England.
This is what he was directly quoted to have been saying:
“If you live in England for five years it doesn’t make you English, the only people who should play for England are English people.”
“If you live in England for five years it doesn’t make you English. You shouldn’t play. It doesn’t mean you can play for a country. If I went to Spain and lived there for five years I’m not going to play for Spain.’’
Immediately after I was aware, I began to ask myself if there was any way I could possibly defend Jack for his comments and I realized that I couldn’t.
I’m aware that he is a young man, 2 years younger than me, and that he’s possibly lived a life growing up where his national identity was never in question and his views on “Englishness” was always pre-defined by his surroundings. Questioning the intellect of most footballers will usually not get you very far in accomplishing anything, but I truly believe he has brought up an interesting subject to discuss and to elaborate on. In the first quote, Jack directly attributes that that his version of being English is universal and cannot be changed. His version of national identity appears static and archaic to me.
“If you live in England for five years it doesn’t make you English” – and I suppose you’d have to ask, why not? Who sets these time constrictions on what it would take for someone to have an accurate grasp of English identity and culture? The government certainly does based on both research and economical aspects. When Jack is saying this, he’s not thinking about all the players who became citizens elsewhere and played for their new adopted country, whether they loved that country, or were grasping that culture and identity is completely subjective and personal to them, it is not something we can decide for others.
Luis Figo, once dismissed Deco for being part of the Portuguese team prior to the Euro 2004 (where they were both hosts and finalists and Deco played a vital role), Figo said:
“I don’t think people would be happy in Spain if I had become a Spanish national and played for the Spanish side,” said the Real Madrid midfielder. “It’s something that distorts team spirit and I don’t agree with it. If you’re born Chinese, well, you have to play for China.”
“It looks like you’re trying to take advantage of something. That’s my opinion and I’m not going to change it because he is in the team.”
Figo there has already decided that Deco was using Portugal, taking advantage of a situation, when in fact it was Portugal who were taking advantage of his new citizenship too.
Deco responded by saying:
“I don’t regret choosing to play for Portugal, I was born in Brazil and it would be a lie to say that I’m Portuguese now and not Brazilian. But I love Portugal and I love playing for the national team.”
See Deco’s experience is also subjective, he recognizes his Brazilian identity to be higher than his Portuguese, but it is not difficult to imagine it the other way around. We live in a very multicultural society in an ever-growing multicultural world, we recognize many different tribal and nationalistic ideas and associate them and stereotype them with what we/our governments and media see fit. The debate was high and live last night, many were suggesting that age mattered, that there was a certain point where players stop adapting to culture or want to belong to another culture, that it is just purely convenient for them to swap nationalities so that they gain caps.
Marcos Senna became a citizen of Spain at the age of 29 and won the European Championship with Spain in 2008. Many would argue that he did so to his advantage, but did not Spain get the advantage too? Was it not convenient for Spain to have a citizen of its country play for them and win them the trophy? So many questions; you all know where I am going with this. Plenty of players in the Spain squad feel more Catalan than Spanish, yet they play for Spain, they love Spain, they play for Spain because they know collectively they will win trophies (some play for Catalonia too).
Owen Hargreaves is another good example, born in Canada, raised in North America, moved to Bayern Munich at 16, lived there until he was 26 before moving to Manchester. He amassed 42 caps for England until the injuries got the better of him, he probably felt more German than English at times? Or more Canadian than German? Or more English than Indian? I don’t know, it gets all confusing, but are we in the game to guess what players feel and how they think before asking them how they truly feel?
I feel like that is one of the biggest flaws in this debate, we assume what players want and ultimately believe they want to “take advantage”, expecting them not to be as “English” as the “Englishman” (vague term, so vague).
Colin Kazim-Richards born in London, raised in England, plays for Turkey, his mother is a Cypriot Turk and his father is Antiguan, does it get confusing yet?
“It’s difficult because half my family is Muslim, and the other half is Christian. I’ve always felt Turkish, though. My nene [grandmother], she can’t speak English. Half of my family, their first language is Turkish, and so I went to Turkish school before I played football, although I can’t remember any of it now”
Owen Hargreaves may have grown up feeling German but playing for England, Colin Kazim Richards may have felt Turkish in that interview, but felt very English had he been a better player? Who knows? I just find it hard to see how footballers and fans have the audacity to tell players and people how to feel and what to be about their national identity? It is you, yourself that gets to choose what you want to be, not them, not an oppressor or a simpleton.
“But you have to have English roots.”
Say that to all the Jamaicans that came to the U.K. in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s and became part of the English national team in the 70’s, how they themselves must see the irony in the apparent need for roots. The need for those former Jamaican men that became naturalized British citizens to play was huge. Besides, the whole concept of English roots is absurd. If you need to look into that, there are thousands of pages about DNA and how none of us are a 100% anything, (except me; I’m a 100% pure blooded twat.
Each government that is part of the EU/EEA has substantially given each person a chance to discover another country and become a resident of it, perhaps even share the national identity of it. I am a person who has taken those chances (through war and opportunity), a person who feels no particular tie to one specific country/administrative state/stateless state, but half a dozen, Iraq, Kurdistan, Norway, England, Wales, Hong Kong.
I am a piece of all of them, but I am also none of them.
I’ve seen many people over the age of 30 adapt to a new culture and totally capture it, a friend of mine never felt American and moved to Japan, he speaks the language, lives the culture, is part of the Japanese identity, especially to himself (as he might be an outcast to others). Who am I to tell him that he’ll never be Japanese to me? Isn’t that an oppressive archaic view of nationality and personal identity, that someone’s personal state of national identity is directly related to my own lack of perspective?
Who is Jack Wilshere or any of you to say Januzaj won’t fall in love with British culture/values/identity and become more than a naturalized citizen?
Who is to say he won’t feel English or British in 6 years? People change, people adopt values that adhere to their reason sometimes, it is not always back to tradition and thinking that it always is perhaps why we are having this debate right now (or I’m having it by myself).
What is a nationality, but a giant tribal government construct on what you are or who you should be?
You know, I grew up with a Geordie, a Brummie, a Mancunian, a Scouser and a Cornish man and none of them could ever tell me what it meant to be English other than to point to regurgitated stereotypes that some of them were not even fond of. To each of them, it was different, they had different views on many different things, and the thing that made them English to me was probably the language and the location.
To measure someone’s Englishness is an exercise in taking a stereotype from a world full of propaganda, stereotypes and agenda’s and turning it against those who do not practice it. You could effectively have English ancestors, be born in England, raised in England but not feel English. People are very complex and to simplify them is a disservice to both their thoughts and abilities to change and grow and become more than a piece of propaganda or national pride (tribal/government construct).
If you look at all countries as if they were all going through a constant transitional cultural change, I believe your view on nationality would change, but most only see it in the moment.
Have a lovely day.
Should you wish to take The Beck to task or agree with him,he can be found on twitter @The_Beck_
Positively Arsenal 
“why you say that? did he not play for england for a good part of a decade if not more ? did he not represent england in international tournaments?”
He did Hunter, well for seven years anyway and 66 caps, and quit international football in 2004 when he was one of England’s best players.
On his retirement from England United boss Sir Alex Ferguson said: “It’s straightforward – he wants to spend more time with his family.”
Mrs Scholes must have been sick of the sight of the little ginger bugger every Summer
LikeLike
Lots of rumours doing the rounds that Arsenal are interested in a loan move for Llorente.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/fernando-llorente-frame-arsenal-transfer-2358146
LikeLike
Anicoll
Funny how the Skunk is missing so many Holland games, now he is at Manure, isn’t it?..
And It was Giggs who could give a shit about Wales, nor Roy Keane and Ireland.
Fergie loved it that way.
LikeLike
“Lol some of you are more focused on Jack than the issue on this blog ”
That may have something to do with the opening nine lines of the original blog five of which are quotes from JW and his opinion on the question of eligibility for national; football teams.
“I can never be a man of Chinese ethnicity, but I can be a man of Chinese ideals and thoughts.”
But you will never pull on the thee dragons shirt – as Jack says
LikeLike
*Could not give a sh’t.
LikeLike
With Giggs loose every Summer you can understand why Scholes decided to spend a bit more time at home tending to Mrs S.’s requirements
LikeLike
I’m partial to an 87, with some crispy number 43 and a side order of number 23.
LikeLike
It’s all good George. My words won’t stop anyone anyway. Nor should they. And In the temporary absence of the Arsenal, you have to talk about something I s’pose.
Coat.
LikeLike
People like national identities and national football teams.
Well I do, anyway.
How else can we take the piss out of the Scots?
Or Australians.
LikeLike
Anicoll @ 6:10pm
Haha.
LikeLike
I just don’t believe that what Jack said was all wrong and the media have extrapolated from what he said. I didn’t say that Jack was a victim simply that IMO, people are bored because there is no football and have decided to talk about his comments. He did not say he hated foreigners, he did not say that you have to be born in England to be English. He did say that to play for the England team you should be English. The ManU player in question is none of these right now. As for what constitutes an English person, Jack merely said that living 5 years in a country does not make you of that country. There must be more to it. Wenger says that sentiment and fit (where you belong) would be a reasonable reason and I agree. Now, how you would measure that is another thing. The reality is that national sovereignty a la the Peace of Westphalia is unravelling. More and more countries allow multiple citizenship and bodies such as the EU are springing up. But, if national competitions like the Euro championship or the World Cup are to continue there must be some line, somewhere to determine where a person should play. This isn’t a smack at anyone just a reality.
And,as for Jack, he’s no victim but it seems that some media have taken a dislike to him or have recognized that he sells newspapers and web hits and thus have pulled him into the spotlight. This, too, shall pass.
LikeLike
@Beck
“I can never be a man of Chinese ethnicity, but I can be a man of Chinese ideals and thoughts.”
What do you know of Chinese ideals? You are not Chinese. You have to born, or at least raised within, a culture to understand it properly. You arrogantly assume you can assimilate the parts of different cultures you visit and think you are a part of it.
Since you’re such a Chinese buff, I’ll put it to you in Chinese terms; the Tao of Truth is a long road that ends only with the acceptance that we cannot alter our fundamental nature.
“The joy and pride felt from nationalism and ethnicity I find bizarre”
Nationalism, okay fine, chest thumping, flag bearing, you cannot understand that because you do identify with a country, unlike many others…but fair enough. But ethicity…you cannot understand people like to take pride in our family heritage? Theri families? Ethnic background comes from families you see. If you do not like people taking pride in their family background, if you find that bizarre…
“If someone says “you are still not my ethnicity” I will say, you’re right, but why does ethnicity matter so much in the midst of all this, we have our ethnicities by chance, I didn’t choose mine, you didn’t choose yours, but I’m very much in love with this culture so let me join it, okay thanks!”
Just because you do not identify with your ethnicity does not mean others do not. If some Englishman identify with their Anglo-Saxon heritage, then good for them. Tolkien himself, who produced such superb and peerless works of literature, considered himself Saxon and his works reflect his nature. It should not bother you that people are happy with their ancestors…
Look, the only reason someone like me, who hardly ever comments on PA, opened his mouth, is because you spout your rhetoric with such self assured zeal and put down the regular posters, as if you are better than them. Well you are not. You can take your education and do with it what you wish, it does not make you better than the man or women next to you, even if you in your self-entitlement think it does.
Mate, lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that. I suspect your worldview is somewhat confused.
LikeLike
We live, and hopefully, we learn Mr Hunter Sir….ahahhaaa…mr? sir? nah nah nah….
yes he is young but i think he has been part of this club long enough to have realised that we are despised. he may have not been in the first team at the time but im sure he was at the club when the eduardo incident happened or when the ramsey incident happened . and im also pretty sure he would hear the news or check the media then to see what the wonderful englishness of his natives had to say about us….. … wenger is only playing ball with the establishment to avoid getting fucked on the pitch, he knows….jack has a lot to learn.
LikeLike
double canister October 11, 2013 at 6:14 pm
or equally how else are we gonna take the piss out of them wallies with the brollies who like offending everybody else’s football instead of sorting out theirs… 🙂
anicoll
He did Hunter, well for seven years anyway and 66 caps, and quit international football in 2004 when he was one of England’s best players.
maybe he got fed up being part of a group that was heading in deadends all the time….why be part of a suffering procedure ?
LikeLike
Just because you do not identify with your ethnicity does not mean others do not.
its not about that though, i.e its not about denying anyone his pride for his country/family/nation whatever.
all ethnicities/nationalities/cultures come with their good and their bad traits. when the bad traits come to the surface more frequently than the good ones it turns you into a narrow-minded stereotype.
there are good elements in englishness and there are terrible elements as well….the notion that “we are tough and we tackle and we go on the field to fight for the country” is it a positive element of english football culture or a negative? what would you say?
now then what would you expect the arsenal player to be like. after all these years of wenger upbringing…? closer to the negative elements of his culture or the positive ones?
LikeLike
Hunter
Yes, the VIP wankers haven’t shown up in their velvet seats at Wembley yet again.
And these wallies are going to tell Wenger who is good enough for Arsenal.
Danny Mills? FFS.
LikeLike
The reason Scholes could not play more international games was because he was a shit and dangerous tackler.
He got away with it for Manu over the years, but FIFA refs don’t like that stuff, apart from Howard Webb.
LikeLike
Bendtner scores against Italy.
LikeLike
Just flipped over to the England game.
Is Roy fucking insane?
that is a suicidally bad selection against a relatively good team.
He has managed to find just about ever player I hate in England and put them in a 3 lions shirt.
LikeLike
1-0 to the Germans in Cologne.
They are just plAying with their food.
LikeLike
England
No midfielder is controlling the play.
Kyle Walker. Wellbeck. Good grief.
LikeLike
Phil McNulty being a shit, as usual
“England losing nothing in Ashley Cole’s absence so far. Leighton Baines has been a stand-out performer in the first-half hour, providing a real attacking threat down the left and creating chances for Danny Welbeck and Steven Gerrard. England are so fortunate to have two such outstanding players in that position.”
Errrrrr. Gibbs? You dipstick.
LikeLike
Gains, so citizenship should be limited as far as any type of national sports are concerned?
One can become a citizen of a country and go to fight for said country and lose your life but sports are sacred. That doesn’t even add up for me. There are more important positions than a football player that these same folks can take up and no one says a word.
For me you are either a citizen with the rights or not. Sports should not be off limits at all.
LikeLike
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0tRtJAzuK8
LikeLike
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7a2RcIhTiQ
LikeLike
What is the issue with a person who played professionally?
LikeLike
Bendtner again!
2-1.
LikeLike
THIS is what being an England fan is all about
That slow dental drill of the qualifiers
Am I down hearted ?
Am I doubtful ?
Never – we are as good as on the plane
Jack – tie your boots
LikeLike
FINS
sign him up!
LikeLike
arsenal players doing well tonite. giroud 2 bendtner 2
LikeLike
Paul-N
I would not be comfortable with countries buying professional footballers, even though this actually happens. It’s practically the norm now in Rugby and Cricket.
Look at those rich gulf states buying-up poorer African athletes, just for the vanity of it.
I’m not comfortable with the other extreme of a so-called ethnically pure team either.
I don’t think Jack meant to be at either extreme, but he was probably reacting to the prospect of a kid who looks good (after a few games, though) in Jack’s position England.
It’s that simple.
LikeLike
Özil makes it 3-0.
LikeLike
Ramsey misses a penalty.
LikeLike
Djourou and Senderos’s team have qualified for the WC.
Chocolate bars all round.
LikeLike
DC 8:20pm
Yes, I must be a complete idiot.
Roy must have seen something in Townsend that I could not.
Rooney had moments of quality too.
Still, Montenegro didn’t offer much.
LikeLike
Hey Hunter,
@ October 11, 2013 at 8:09 pm
Football culture is a tough one mate. I can comment on topics that I know about, but what I know about football culture historically is basically all from the DVD boxset, ‘history of football’ – which is AMAZING btw – but I am not sure what English football culture is. I know there’s Clough and there’s Revie, but all I know about them is from that movie, The Damned United.
The only thing I can judge is that it seems Jack is not a bad guy, just needs to learn not to be bated by the media. But better posters than me have said that in more articulate manner
LikeLike
I love my country, Finland, and Arsenal. Despite not having a drop of Ugric blood in my veins or ever having lived in London. They are some of the tribes I feel I belong to. Am also proud of my ethnic roots. So for my part, patriotism ok, nationalism not. It has caused almost as much grief in the world as religion. In general, it’s better to be inclusive than exclusive.
Still, Jack has a point – isn’t it absurd that almost anyone can be chosen to play in a national side? But, of course, it would’ve been smarter for him to shut up or go for a PC platitude.
Educated is no guarantee of anything. But it does correlate with a lot of good things. The opinion of someone who knows more about something is more valuable. Like Arsene Wenger vs. me on football. Of course, that knowledge does not have to stem from formal education. However, education and schooling is perhaps the most important thing the world needs.
Sorry for being pompous, blame it on my education.
Great to see the Arsenal players doing well. Look forward to seeing a compilation of Ramsey’s MOTM performance.
LikeLike
Pual N: “One can become a citizen of a country and go to fight for said country and lose your life but sports are sacred.”
I love you Paul. You know I do. But you can fuck off with this military nonsense, as far as I’m concerned. I am a pacifist and this die for your country nonsense is an American construct which is used to entice immigrants who want American citizenship. How fucking dare you. You think Eduardo or Deco would join up if there was mandatory military service?
Hunter is an asshole, but I expect better from my family, Paul.
LikeLike
Die for your country an American construct? Surely not.
LikeLike
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori
Wilfred Owen 1917
(Well educated, is wot I proper am)
Sadly, many many people were never giving the option of opting out of dying for their country.
Paul never meant that is what people should do.
LikeLike
Always hated good old dulce et decorum. Dulce my ass. The Good Soldier Svejk was my role model when I did my stint in the Army (national service). But surely there are things for which one should be willing to fight and die for? Being slaughtered on the Somme was just a horrible waste but being killed while shooting the goolies off SS swine, good. Or like the French whatsisface said, I disagree with you, but I’m willing to die to protect your right to do so. Or words to that effect.
LikeLike
1 Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
2 Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
3 Till on the haunting flares we turned out backs,
4 And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
5 Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
6 But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind;
7 Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
8 Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.
9 Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!–An ecstasy of fumbling
10 Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
11 But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
12 And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime.–
13 Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
14 As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
15 In all my dreams before my helpless sight
16 He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
17 If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
18 Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
19 And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
20 His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin,
21 If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
22 Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs
23 Bitter as the cud
24 Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,–
25 My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
26 To children ardent for some desperate glory,
27 The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
28 Pro patria mori.
LikeLike
DC : And these wallies are going to tell Wenger who is good enough for Arsenal.
eeeexactly…..it is comical isnt it..i find it shocking and offensive.
Gainsbourg69 October 12, 2013 at 7:22 am
hahaaa …..i just want arsenal to humiliate all the englishness that has attacked us down the years man …..now please go find me a video of playmakers who tackle 🙂 ….
and hey…expert….remember how the arsehole explained to you that fullbacks tackle more than midfielders…players in the centre need to deal with positioning, players on the side/flanks have to deal with speedy situations- hence last ditch tackling .. :
Song 3.3 per game.
Clichy 6.8
Evra 4.6
Cole 3.9
( espn, wiki, soccerbase, arsenal.com etc )
..you were saying…?…… i may be an arsehole some times but at least i can prove everything i say my dear friend….. 🙂 …now please show me pirlo/albertini/redondo and other deep playmakers tackling (???) stats…hahaaa…
oh look another fullback : Kieran Gibbs has won 24 tackles this season (2013-2014) in all competitions (one every 32 minutes) and is the top tackling defender in the entire Premier League with 21.
(…lights cigar ) ….
* you see . i dont have to swear at you or insult you with names, i prefer facts..hehehe…
LikeLike
look : http://cdn.eplindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/LFC-AFC-Tackling-0910-2.png
this table, (if you can read it properly) shows song with 0 TACKLES and with 15 total ground duels…i.e pushing them and winning ball from them like the arsehole was saying…..
🙂
LikeLike
ohhhhh the shame…..
LikeLike
Hunter
It’s not my argument but players like Pirlo don’t need to tackle much if they can keep the ball.
If I saw Özil going in hard to win the ball, I’d be very worried.
Scholes was a wonderful footballer but a useless, even dangerous tackeler.
LikeLike
So Song wasn’t making a lot of tackles, and we sold to the manure the only player he passed the ball to.
Oh, what to do?
Thanks Barca for sorting that problem out for us.
LikeLike
Gains, but you know I don’t roll like that. I don’t agree with your stance or last comment. Not in the least. You went off on some anti American tirade because you have a gripe but that has nothing to do with what I said. How dare me? Bredrin, I love you too but it is you who are out of order. You can read into what you want to, but please don’t try to make my point for me. I have said what I think to be right, simple ting.
DC, if a person is a citizen of a country that is it for me. I fully understand where Wilshere is coming from but again, if you tell someone they are a citizen of a country I find it absurd to say that you cannot represent YOUR country in a game of sports. It is black and white for me, though I understand the point. Start doing crap like that and you may see people not allowed to do other things because people feel they are not citizen enough for their liking.
I said my what I have to say on the matter, that is it.,
LikeLike
i know dude..thats why its a ridiculous concept for playmakers to tackle as the expert suggested…if you are aware position-wise and can read opponents move/game you dont need to tackle. when the opposing winger flies past the full back though with face on goal and the fullback with back on goal..he has to turn and chase and possibly commit to the tackle…. hence they will usually have higher ratio that those in middle.
already flamini has shown in more than two/three occasions how to control an opponents in contra attacks…he follows and blocks corridors…..he doesnt slide in like a muppet ALL the time….and in any case he isnt deep lying playmaker but def mid …
LikeLike
Micky,
That French bloke was Voltaire.
A handy right back for St. Etienne, I recall, back in the day.
Wrote some books in his spare time.
LikeLike