Today a guest post from The Beck.
Last night, the Telegraph released an interview with Jack Wilshere. He was speaking to the infamous/famous Henry Winter about his views on the possibility of Adnan Januzaj representing England.
This is what he was directly quoted to have been saying:
“If you live in England for five years it doesn’t make you English, the only people who should play for England are English people.”
“If you live in England for five years it doesn’t make you English. You shouldn’t play. It doesn’t mean you can play for a country. If I went to Spain and lived there for five years I’m not going to play for Spain.’’
Immediately after I was aware, I began to ask myself if there was any way I could possibly defend Jack for his comments and I realized that I couldn’t.
I’m aware that he is a young man, 2 years younger than me, and that he’s possibly lived a life growing up where his national identity was never in question and his views on “Englishness” was always pre-defined by his surroundings. Questioning the intellect of most footballers will usually not get you very far in accomplishing anything, but I truly believe he has brought up an interesting subject to discuss and to elaborate on. In the first quote, Jack directly attributes that that his version of being English is universal and cannot be changed. His version of national identity appears static and archaic to me.
“If you live in England for five years it doesn’t make you English” – and I suppose you’d have to ask, why not? Who sets these time constrictions on what it would take for someone to have an accurate grasp of English identity and culture? The government certainly does based on both research and economical aspects. When Jack is saying this, he’s not thinking about all the players who became citizens elsewhere and played for their new adopted country, whether they loved that country, or were grasping that culture and identity is completely subjective and personal to them, it is not something we can decide for others.
Luis Figo, once dismissed Deco for being part of the Portuguese team prior to the Euro 2004 (where they were both hosts and finalists and Deco played a vital role), Figo said:
“I don’t think people would be happy in Spain if I had become a Spanish national and played for the Spanish side,” said the Real Madrid midfielder. “It’s something that distorts team spirit and I don’t agree with it. If you’re born Chinese, well, you have to play for China.”
“It looks like you’re trying to take advantage of something. That’s my opinion and I’m not going to change it because he is in the team.”
Figo there has already decided that Deco was using Portugal, taking advantage of a situation, when in fact it was Portugal who were taking advantage of his new citizenship too.
Deco responded by saying:
“I don’t regret choosing to play for Portugal, I was born in Brazil and it would be a lie to say that I’m Portuguese now and not Brazilian. But I love Portugal and I love playing for the national team.”
See Deco’s experience is also subjective, he recognizes his Brazilian identity to be higher than his Portuguese, but it is not difficult to imagine it the other way around. We live in a very multicultural society in an ever-growing multicultural world, we recognize many different tribal and nationalistic ideas and associate them and stereotype them with what we/our governments and media see fit. The debate was high and live last night, many were suggesting that age mattered, that there was a certain point where players stop adapting to culture or want to belong to another culture, that it is just purely convenient for them to swap nationalities so that they gain caps.
Marcos Senna became a citizen of Spain at the age of 29 and won the European Championship with Spain in 2008. Many would argue that he did so to his advantage, but did not Spain get the advantage too? Was it not convenient for Spain to have a citizen of its country play for them and win them the trophy? So many questions; you all know where I am going with this. Plenty of players in the Spain squad feel more Catalan than Spanish, yet they play for Spain, they love Spain, they play for Spain because they know collectively they will win trophies (some play for Catalonia too).
Owen Hargreaves is another good example, born in Canada, raised in North America, moved to Bayern Munich at 16, lived there until he was 26 before moving to Manchester. He amassed 42 caps for England until the injuries got the better of him, he probably felt more German than English at times? Or more Canadian than German? Or more English than Indian? I don’t know, it gets all confusing, but are we in the game to guess what players feel and how they think before asking them how they truly feel?
I feel like that is one of the biggest flaws in this debate, we assume what players want and ultimately believe they want to “take advantage”, expecting them not to be as “English” as the “Englishman” (vague term, so vague).
Colin Kazim-Richards born in London, raised in England, plays for Turkey, his mother is a Cypriot Turk and his father is Antiguan, does it get confusing yet?
“It’s difficult because half my family is Muslim, and the other half is Christian. I’ve always felt Turkish, though. My nene [grandmother], she can’t speak English. Half of my family, their first language is Turkish, and so I went to Turkish school before I played football, although I can’t remember any of it now”
Owen Hargreaves may have grown up feeling German but playing for England, Colin Kazim Richards may have felt Turkish in that interview, but felt very English had he been a better player? Who knows? I just find it hard to see how footballers and fans have the audacity to tell players and people how to feel and what to be about their national identity? It is you, yourself that gets to choose what you want to be, not them, not an oppressor or a simpleton.
“But you have to have English roots.”
Say that to all the Jamaicans that came to the U.K. in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s and became part of the English national team in the 70’s, how they themselves must see the irony in the apparent need for roots. The need for those former Jamaican men that became naturalized British citizens to play was huge. Besides, the whole concept of English roots is absurd. If you need to look into that, there are thousands of pages about DNA and how none of us are a 100% anything, (except me; I’m a 100% pure blooded twat.
Each government that is part of the EU/EEA has substantially given each person a chance to discover another country and become a resident of it, perhaps even share the national identity of it. I am a person who has taken those chances (through war and opportunity), a person who feels no particular tie to one specific country/administrative state/stateless state, but half a dozen, Iraq, Kurdistan, Norway, England, Wales, Hong Kong.
I am a piece of all of them, but I am also none of them.
I’ve seen many people over the age of 30 adapt to a new culture and totally capture it, a friend of mine never felt American and moved to Japan, he speaks the language, lives the culture, is part of the Japanese identity, especially to himself (as he might be an outcast to others). Who am I to tell him that he’ll never be Japanese to me? Isn’t that an oppressive archaic view of nationality and personal identity, that someone’s personal state of national identity is directly related to my own lack of perspective?
Who is Jack Wilshere or any of you to say Januzaj won’t fall in love with British culture/values/identity and become more than a naturalized citizen?
Who is to say he won’t feel English or British in 6 years? People change, people adopt values that adhere to their reason sometimes, it is not always back to tradition and thinking that it always is perhaps why we are having this debate right now (or I’m having it by myself).
What is a nationality, but a giant tribal government construct on what you are or who you should be?
You know, I grew up with a Geordie, a Brummie, a Mancunian, a Scouser and a Cornish man and none of them could ever tell me what it meant to be English other than to point to regurgitated stereotypes that some of them were not even fond of. To each of them, it was different, they had different views on many different things, and the thing that made them English to me was probably the language and the location.
To measure someone’s Englishness is an exercise in taking a stereotype from a world full of propaganda, stereotypes and agenda’s and turning it against those who do not practice it. You could effectively have English ancestors, be born in England, raised in England but not feel English. People are very complex and to simplify them is a disservice to both their thoughts and abilities to change and grow and become more than a piece of propaganda or national pride (tribal/government construct).
If you look at all countries as if they were all going through a constant transitional cultural change, I believe your view on nationality would change, but most only see it in the moment.
Have a lovely day.
Should you wish to take The Beck to task or agree with him,he can be found on twitter @The_Beck_
Positively Arsenal 
Georgaki, getting internet in the new place next week. When is the next get together?
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I must say in all seriousness the discussions on here lately have been very good. Well done Becks..
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Paul-N
Probably Tuesday 22nd, Arsenal V Borussia Dortmund k.o. 1945 UK time…
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It takes me years to learn some things, I can be very slow, expecting everything to jump in the same discussion with similar understanding is a lot to ask, I haven’t been surprised by all of your intellect, I knew of it before, I am very aware that you’re all very intelligent and I really appreciate all the opinions, I don’t believe I am 100% right on anything, nor that I am always right on anything, nor that it is important to be right.
It is important to ask the right questions and have an answer that can handle all the questions and all the critique in the world.
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Beck, I think you are making a great point. I have not read the entire thread but I agree with you. I don’t see how Wilshere’s suggestion can work without opening a big can of worms. I would like to see him spell it out to the T, or anyone else for that matter.
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Agree with your overall view that is.
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Ok Georgaki. I’m gonna try to join in.
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I would like to see him spell it out to the T, or anyone else for that matter.
others can well try and get exposed as little englanders all they want…not our jack…our jack should tell them all to fuck off and that due to the manner they have treated his team and teammates that he refuses to comment to pricks in media.
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Alex Beck: “He specifically said that he doesn’t think after 5 years of living in England it makes you English, I specifically disagree with that. Arsene Wenger protects him by saying he agrees with that idea but then rebuts it by saying the Englishness is not defined and he has to train players with three or four different cultures, so his proposition is that the football authorities might want to be stricter with it so that players don’t buy their passports.”
Context is everything, though, isn’t it? Jack wasn’t talking about the Ukrainian laborer who becomes a citizen or the Guyanese family from Peckham struggling to integrate into English society. He was talking about footballers who use a loop hole in order to play in international tournaments and set themselves up to make a pile of cash. Taking Jackie’s words out of context in order to turn this incident into the something akin to the row between the Daily Mail and David Milliband, is just off for me.
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Hunter, I bet you loved Jack when he said he’d fuck off if Wenger was sacked, didn’t you?
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Gains, if someone is a footballer from another country and becomes a citizen of another country, who should he play for? Should he be allowed to play for the country he is a citizen of? I am trying to figure it out.
Gains, Wilshere made the comment let him deal with it. Crap media or not. I would love for him to detail it.
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Gainsbourg69
October 11, 2013 at 3:15 pm
lol….right i think youre either a bit thick or doing it on purpose mate for i have no issues with jack nor do i care what he said (something i have repeated) im just against all this ‘englishness’ and this narrow minded patriotism/nationalism …if you cant fucking get it then dont comment…you started misunderstanding things yesterday…and i kept calm…stop provoking.
werent you the one talking about how talking online and how youd talk in a pub ? lets see you then.. 😉
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Second part was for Hunter, not Gains.
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By the way, I didn’t mean to say you were turning Jack’s comments into a row akin to the Daily Mail, David Milliband affair.
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which of the following words do you not comprehend gains ?
“arsenal players should be above such crap”
have you not seen something like that being mentioned already ? im sure you have….so whats bugging you? spell it out…
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Only eight days til Norwich …………….Drums fingers on keyboard
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“Gains, if someone is a footballer from another country and becomes a citizen of another country, who should he play for? Should he be allowed to play for the country he is a citizen of? I am trying to figure it out.
Gains, Wilshere made the comment let him deal with it. Crap media or not. I would love for him to detail it”
No. Not if he came to his new country as an adult and a professional.
David Milliband’s father said some audacious things about England when he was seventeen years old and the English political establishment is bending over backwards to make sure everyone knows he said those things while he was a kid. Why are we allowing Jack to be painted as a racist monster, even though he was talking about footballers and not run of the mill immigrants?
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@Beck
“They probably don’t make sense to you because you did not have the education I did, not many have. ”
My dear fellow, you know not the education I have had in my life yet you come with your condescending attitude. Your neo liberal scholarly attitude cannot understand that all people are the same in their innate values and yet different in their application. Please, as George says, understand that education does not equate to intelligence, or I would add, wisdom.
You should read the books of China before claiming people can just be a part of China. Seriously, don’t piss on one of the great civilisations of the world with your nonsense. I am quite sure Chinese know exactly who and what they are, and what they are not. Just like everyone else. Its not a government conspiracy to have a 4000 year old history of science, medicine, art and culture, even if it is written in a funny script?
But this is a football blog and this topic is no doubt boring to everyone, so I will have the good grace to drop it. But Beck, remember, other cultures than your professors have written thesis in other languages and just because you are a scholar does not mean others are not as well. Being well read does not make one right, in all cases or indeed at all.
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Football topic: did anyone see Walter’s article on Untold Arsenal, summing up their efforts regarding the state of refereeing in the EPL.
http://blog.emiratesstadium.info/archives/31727
Compelling stuff. Those referee reviewers on Untold and Referee Decisions are unsung heroes.
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Hunter: ““arsenal players should be above such crap”
Above what, expressing their opinions? If you think what Jack said was crap, then you’ve already decided he’s as close minded as some EDL idiot.
By the way, I am thick. I should have upheld my decision to not exchange words with someone as uninformed as you are.
Alex Song didn’t tackle. Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!
Idiot.
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Hunter: “lol….right i think youre either a bit thick or doing it on purpose mate for i have no issues with jack nor do i care what he said (something i have repeated) im just against all this ‘englishness’ and this narrow minded patriotism/nationalism …if you cant fucking get it then dont comment…you started misunderstanding things yesterday…and i kept calm…stop provoking.”
You may be against this Englishness, patriotism/nationalism, but some people are moved by it and deserve just as much respect as anyone else.
Misunderstanding? Like when you say stupid shit and I prove you wrong?
Hahahahahaha!!!
“werent you the one talking about how talking online and how youd talk in a pub ? lets see you then.. ;)”
We’d be the only two drunken assholes arguing and people would look at us weird.
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in that they should be above shallow concepts of patriotism and nationalism via football (a sport)
again you fail to get it….i repeat…i dont care what he said..i care that he seems to enjoy this “englishness”..and for me too much englishness in football is regressive, not progressive.
no song didnt tackle like barry or similar english counterparts playing in his position…sorry perhaps you missed how he woudl simply knowck runners off the ball and just intercept or shoulderpush them aside.
uninformed? well…you were the one talking about playmakers and tackling …the two dont mix….
” but some people are moved by it and deserve just as much respect as anyone else.”
who is moved by it exactly? you mean other shallow people who use football for national pride? ahhh you mean the sun readers…ok
Misunderstanding? Like when you say stupid shit and I prove you wrong?
i beg your pardon…..who told you you were right to call anyone else wrong…..deep lying playmakers dont tackle …i gave you about 6-7 names of deep lying playmakers none of them tackled in the sense you meant, did they ? ….so maybe youre off target holding alonso as a playmaker when in fact he isnt…. 😉
na i dont think youd be calling people idiots and provoking them and laughin like a clown in a public place…youd get smacked.
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No Smacking.What sort of an establishment do you think this is?
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“in that they should be above shallow concepts of patriotism and nationalism via football (a sport)
again you fail to get it….i repeat…i dont care what he said..i care that he seems to enjoy this “englishness”..and for me too much englishness in football is regressive, not progressive.”
I do get it. You don’t share Wilshere’s affection for his country, therefore he’s an idiot who reads the Sun or worse yet, a fanatical racist. .
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“na i dont think youd be calling people idiots and provoking them and laughin like a clown in a public place…youd get smacked.”
And I’d call Kung Fu George to bail me out. So there. Na na na boo boo stick your head in doo doo.
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you don’t share Wilshere’s affection for his country
why are football and affection for your country being mixed though? thats the point.
what has affection for your country got to do with a round object kicked on a field of grass by 22 young guys wearing shorts? ?
can anyone explain ???
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well there is no doubt what he said would appeal more to sun readers….or else ozil and podolski are opportunists if jacks words on nationality and -ness are to be taken at face value….. 😉
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And I’d call Kung Fu George to bail me out.
you can call chuck norris too if you want……..
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I think Wilshere’s thoughts were half formed and articulated. I don’t believe that he is necessarily a Little Englander or Xenophobic. I choose to interpret what he says the way Arsene Wenger did. 5 years in a place is not the determinant of a person’s nationality. It should be where you believe and feel you belong. A player moving to a country to play football does necessarily qualify. Some may believe he/she is taking advantage of others for personal or monetary gain…meh, whatever.
But, above all…it is an interlull and there is precious little football to discuss….so why not take a poke at Jack whose error seems to be that he dared offer an opinion that is not held by all men, English or otherwise.
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I do get it. You don’t share Wilshere’s affection for his country, therefore he’s an idiot who reads the Sun or worse yet, a fanatical racist. .
lmao…. love how you put words in people’s ‘mouths’ when none such words have been said let alone the conclusions of hyperbole you come up with… 🙂
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so why not take a poke at Jack whose error seems to be that he dared offer an opinion that is not held by all men, English or otherwise.
you saying jack is a victim then?
does he not have the intelligence to see the traps from media?
could he not say ‘no comment’ ?
how come scholes never got into such messes? is it cause he vigorously stayed away from cameras and denying any idea of being a spokesman or a saviour or the next best thing ? …. 😉
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With thanks to the Tiny Steps Day Nursery of Bristol for this timely policy directive;
“Behaviour
We encourage good behaviour, positive attitudes and praise, all children will be verbally praised and we do encourage children to praise each other and themselves.
Children that use unacceptable behaviour will be asked about the situation and parents/guardians will be informed. If the unacceptable behaviour continues you will be asked to come in and we can discuss how to resolve the situation together.
We have a very strict NO SMACKING policy and believe that children learn by example, all our staff do their very best to ensure your child is treated with respect at all times.”
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Except Ozil was born in Germany and Lukas Podolski was an infant when he was brought there. According to Jack, anything more than five years is fine.
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“how come scholes never got into such messes?”
Or Ryan Giggs ?
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“It should be where you believe and feel you belong. ”
Relativism gone mad GGG
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anicoll5
October 11, 2013 at 5:11 pm
i meant scholes utter apathy towards media, cameras, interviews……..
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It’s all kicking off round here these days George.
Interlullllzzzzzzzzzzz GGGooner. They don’t half drag on. And on. And on.
Who knew Jack was to be the new face of the EDL now that Tommy fella has left to raise fluffy non racist kittens (black and white ones).
Poor Jack. The moral would seem to be: stick to bland PR platitudes in future. I think he had valid points which he unfortunately expressed in a somewhat clumsy manner (in response to a leading question by the, er, journalist), and have since been willfully misinterpreted. Hardly makes the lad Bernard Manning.
Storm in a teacup. What’s of greater concern is that he is under the media spotlight like never before, there is increasing of pressure on his shoulders as England’s great hope for the future, and his form at Arsenal will be under continued scrutiny. He has to learn to handle that I s’pose. Good to see Roy defend his corner.
I also agree with Monsieur Gainsbourg.
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as well as Scholes’ utter apathy towards playing for England Hunter
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According to Jack, anything more than five years is fine.
if the duration ( years 5 or more) is what you understood was his issue then i wonder who the real idiot is….? .. 🙂 after all he said ‘If you live in England for five years it doesn’t make you English’ do 6 make you one then? or is it 7 and a half? …. ahah smart-arse gains…sit down …
jack aint talking about years or numbers or duration. he talks about identity..and not a footballers identity but a national identity….”we are tough and we fight on the field for the country” …. well football isnt about being tough and dying on the field for the country…
just like you were talking shit about playmakers and tackling ……. 😉
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@Sav from Australia
I apologized for the condescending comment, but I stick by what I meant by saying them, you haven’t had my education therefore couldn’t reach my conclusions, I didn’t say you had a lack of education, or that my education was superior.
I’ve just spoken for hours about how I hate stereotypes, yet you take to calling me neo-liberal (something I don’t believe I am) in a sentence structure that suggests its derogatory lol.
You are accusing someone with an incredibly open mind that it is closed, everything I have posted here does suggests I am open to better explanations, quite the contrary.
I lived in Hong Kong, I’ve spent considerable time in China, I did the opposite than to piss on their civilization with my “nonsense”, I’ve spoken to many Cantonese professors about this and they agree that although a taboo, a person that they consider a “gwaylo”, a ghost, a westerner, could adopt the entire Cantonese culture *especially contemporary* and become at one with Cantonese identity, why he’d want to do that or if he’d ever be accepted by the Cantonese is an entirely different story.
You are mixing ethnicity with political and mental identity.
People are proud of their ethnicity, despite doing nothing to earn it/deserve it or take part in its conception, people are proud of their countries, despite not taking any part in building it, *nor really making it better*.
The joy and pride felt from nationalism and ethnicity I find bizarre. People use the use the word proud in a bizarre way. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MktlfjFb3j0
If our genetic make up is the same, our DNA is entirely mixed and based on chance and probability of the past, out of all the wars and dominance caused by most of western super powers in politics over the decades, is it really fair for the other international teams that things are the way they are? and if there is culture and tribal culture at club football (there is plenty), why is there a need for International Football?
Because of Ghengis Khan, there is a massive tribe of Mongolian Turkish people in Turkey (and all over Asia), some of them might feel Turkish, some might feel Mongolian, is their political and personal identity based on their culture or their ethnicity? I would say it is the culture, still. You are saying it is the ethnicity, I don’t believe it is. If you are separated from your culture, you do not look back at your ethnicity for your culture, you can learn a new culture and be part of it for the rest of your life.
There have been plenty of psychologists that have had men wake up from amnesia thinking they are from another culture/ethnicity and you cannot convince them otherwise.
Another great example is Israel. The largest ethnic group is that of Israeli Jews, followed by Arab citizens, mostly Arab Muslims, with smaller numbers of Arab Christians in addition to Druze, Circassians, and others. As a result.
As a result, some Israelis don’t take their nationality as an ethnicity, but identify themselves with both their nationality and their ancestral origins.
So to them, if a man of Arabic ethnicity has an Israeli nationality, it doesn’t count to them, he’ll never have an Israeli personality/identity to them, even though it could well be that he has, sounds a bit similar to your version no? I find this highly exclusionary, if not down right racist.
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as well as Scholes’ utter apathy towards playing for England Hunter
why you say that? did he not play for england for a good part of a decade if not more ? did he not represent england in international tournaments?
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He has to learn to handle that I s’pose
what better way than raising the middle one to all those jerks?
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Lol some of you are more focused on Jack than the issue on this blog and you keep repeating it, Jack made ANOTHER mistake, he’s young and he’s not very smart but surely he’ll learn from this, he needs to be smarter, but he’s brought this on himself.
The issue remains, what constitutes an Englishman?
He kept saying “you have to be English”
Answer the question, what does that even mean? What does it mean to be English?
And if the Government has set 5 years for you to become an English citizen, assuming an English identity, who is to say you couldn’t do it faster?
If you believe ethnicity has anything to do with being an Englishman, I’d love to see you explain why and justify it. You will tread water and you will get wet.
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I can never be a man of Anglo Saxon ethnicity, but I can be a man of Anglo Saxon ideals and thoughts, I can assume that identity if I wish to, and do it well.
I can never be a man of Chinese ethnicity, but I can be a man of Chinese ideals and thoughts.
Do people get what I am trying to say here?
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When I do assume those ideals and thoughts to a point of perfection, if someone tells me “You are still not my countryman nor do you deserve to play for my country”, I will say fuck right off.
If someone says “you are still not my ethnicity” I will say, you’re right, but why does ethnicity matter so much in the midst of all this, we have our ethnicities by chance, I didn’t choose mine, you didn’t choose yours, but I’m very much in love with this culture so let me join it, okay thanks!
#TheMemoirsOfAnImmigrant
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Alexander Beck
October 11, 2013 at 5:40 pm
heheh we are surrounded by smart-arses you see who insist on thinking we have issues with jack …while its clear ( for me at least) that the problem is this “englishness”….whatever that means in football terms…lol
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I Think he was mixing up Scholes and Giggs.
Gingers, eh? who needs ’em.
I’ll get my coat and join Harry on the side lines.
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Beck.Ethnicity can and does effect how English someone might feel.
Of course it could also have no effect at all.
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We live, and hopefully, we learn Mr Hunter Sir.
He’s a young man, who expressed his opinion. Did he give this opinion great thought? did he consult weighty tomes before briefly espousing his views on national identity vis-à-vis eligibility to play for England? perhaps not.
He’s not, as George has already said, a c*nt..sorry..a politician. So I don’t think it’s really necessary to seize on, and dissect his words with such fervour
We move on.
Ta ta.
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Harry,I think if the blog is on that very subject,discussion will follow.And as we know ,will be followed to the n’th degree.
Tiresome as it has become.
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