Today a guest post from The Beck.
Last night, the Telegraph released an interview with Jack Wilshere. He was speaking to the infamous/famous Henry Winter about his views on the possibility of Adnan Januzaj representing England.
This is what he was directly quoted to have been saying:
“If you live in England for five years it doesn’t make you English, the only people who should play for England are English people.”
“If you live in England for five years it doesn’t make you English. You shouldn’t play. It doesn’t mean you can play for a country. If I went to Spain and lived there for five years I’m not going to play for Spain.’’
Immediately after I was aware, I began to ask myself if there was any way I could possibly defend Jack for his comments and I realized that I couldn’t.
I’m aware that he is a young man, 2 years younger than me, and that he’s possibly lived a life growing up where his national identity was never in question and his views on “Englishness” was always pre-defined by his surroundings. Questioning the intellect of most footballers will usually not get you very far in accomplishing anything, but I truly believe he has brought up an interesting subject to discuss and to elaborate on. In the first quote, Jack directly attributes that that his version of being English is universal and cannot be changed. His version of national identity appears static and archaic to me.
“If you live in England for five years it doesn’t make you English” – and I suppose you’d have to ask, why not? Who sets these time constrictions on what it would take for someone to have an accurate grasp of English identity and culture? The government certainly does based on both research and economical aspects. When Jack is saying this, he’s not thinking about all the players who became citizens elsewhere and played for their new adopted country, whether they loved that country, or were grasping that culture and identity is completely subjective and personal to them, it is not something we can decide for others.
Luis Figo, once dismissed Deco for being part of the Portuguese team prior to the Euro 2004 (where they were both hosts and finalists and Deco played a vital role), Figo said:
“I don’t think people would be happy in Spain if I had become a Spanish national and played for the Spanish side,” said the Real Madrid midfielder. “It’s something that distorts team spirit and I don’t agree with it. If you’re born Chinese, well, you have to play for China.”
“It looks like you’re trying to take advantage of something. That’s my opinion and I’m not going to change it because he is in the team.”
Figo there has already decided that Deco was using Portugal, taking advantage of a situation, when in fact it was Portugal who were taking advantage of his new citizenship too.
Deco responded by saying:
“I don’t regret choosing to play for Portugal, I was born in Brazil and it would be a lie to say that I’m Portuguese now and not Brazilian. But I love Portugal and I love playing for the national team.”
See Deco’s experience is also subjective, he recognizes his Brazilian identity to be higher than his Portuguese, but it is not difficult to imagine it the other way around. We live in a very multicultural society in an ever-growing multicultural world, we recognize many different tribal and nationalistic ideas and associate them and stereotype them with what we/our governments and media see fit. The debate was high and live last night, many were suggesting that age mattered, that there was a certain point where players stop adapting to culture or want to belong to another culture, that it is just purely convenient for them to swap nationalities so that they gain caps.
Marcos Senna became a citizen of Spain at the age of 29 and won the European Championship with Spain in 2008. Many would argue that he did so to his advantage, but did not Spain get the advantage too? Was it not convenient for Spain to have a citizen of its country play for them and win them the trophy? So many questions; you all know where I am going with this. Plenty of players in the Spain squad feel more Catalan than Spanish, yet they play for Spain, they love Spain, they play for Spain because they know collectively they will win trophies (some play for Catalonia too).
Owen Hargreaves is another good example, born in Canada, raised in North America, moved to Bayern Munich at 16, lived there until he was 26 before moving to Manchester. He amassed 42 caps for England until the injuries got the better of him, he probably felt more German than English at times? Or more Canadian than German? Or more English than Indian? I don’t know, it gets all confusing, but are we in the game to guess what players feel and how they think before asking them how they truly feel?
I feel like that is one of the biggest flaws in this debate, we assume what players want and ultimately believe they want to “take advantage”, expecting them not to be as “English” as the “Englishman” (vague term, so vague).
Colin Kazim-Richards born in London, raised in England, plays for Turkey, his mother is a Cypriot Turk and his father is Antiguan, does it get confusing yet?
“It’s difficult because half my family is Muslim, and the other half is Christian. I’ve always felt Turkish, though. My nene [grandmother], she can’t speak English. Half of my family, their first language is Turkish, and so I went to Turkish school before I played football, although I can’t remember any of it now”
Owen Hargreaves may have grown up feeling German but playing for England, Colin Kazim Richards may have felt Turkish in that interview, but felt very English had he been a better player? Who knows? I just find it hard to see how footballers and fans have the audacity to tell players and people how to feel and what to be about their national identity? It is you, yourself that gets to choose what you want to be, not them, not an oppressor or a simpleton.
“But you have to have English roots.”
Say that to all the Jamaicans that came to the U.K. in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s and became part of the English national team in the 70’s, how they themselves must see the irony in the apparent need for roots. The need for those former Jamaican men that became naturalized British citizens to play was huge. Besides, the whole concept of English roots is absurd. If you need to look into that, there are thousands of pages about DNA and how none of us are a 100% anything, (except me; I’m a 100% pure blooded twat.
Each government that is part of the EU/EEA has substantially given each person a chance to discover another country and become a resident of it, perhaps even share the national identity of it. I am a person who has taken those chances (through war and opportunity), a person who feels no particular tie to one specific country/administrative state/stateless state, but half a dozen, Iraq, Kurdistan, Norway, England, Wales, Hong Kong.
I am a piece of all of them, but I am also none of them.
I’ve seen many people over the age of 30 adapt to a new culture and totally capture it, a friend of mine never felt American and moved to Japan, he speaks the language, lives the culture, is part of the Japanese identity, especially to himself (as he might be an outcast to others). Who am I to tell him that he’ll never be Japanese to me? Isn’t that an oppressive archaic view of nationality and personal identity, that someone’s personal state of national identity is directly related to my own lack of perspective?
Who is Jack Wilshere or any of you to say Januzaj won’t fall in love with British culture/values/identity and become more than a naturalized citizen?
Who is to say he won’t feel English or British in 6 years? People change, people adopt values that adhere to their reason sometimes, it is not always back to tradition and thinking that it always is perhaps why we are having this debate right now (or I’m having it by myself).
What is a nationality, but a giant tribal government construct on what you are or who you should be?
You know, I grew up with a Geordie, a Brummie, a Mancunian, a Scouser and a Cornish man and none of them could ever tell me what it meant to be English other than to point to regurgitated stereotypes that some of them were not even fond of. To each of them, it was different, they had different views on many different things, and the thing that made them English to me was probably the language and the location.
To measure someone’s Englishness is an exercise in taking a stereotype from a world full of propaganda, stereotypes and agenda’s and turning it against those who do not practice it. You could effectively have English ancestors, be born in England, raised in England but not feel English. People are very complex and to simplify them is a disservice to both their thoughts and abilities to change and grow and become more than a piece of propaganda or national pride (tribal/government construct).
If you look at all countries as if they were all going through a constant transitional cultural change, I believe your view on nationality would change, but most only see it in the moment.
Have a lovely day.
Should you wish to take The Beck to task or agree with him,he can be found on twitter @The_Beck_
Positively Arsenal 
Beck
I assure you,
This is not a witch hunt on Jack.
Nor is anyone criticising your original post. just go with the flow of the discussion, it is leading into fascinating areas of ideas on identity.
This is a fascinating debate on English identity amongst a vast range of people with experiences and opinions from around the planet. And we all know the Empire had spread its wings over most of the Globe.
For instance, I was born in England – (outside London) but I consider myself a native Gooner, even though I’m Irish – if that makes sense?
The goonerverse is indeed global.
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Steww!!
Winston Churchill seems less controversial than Jack at the moment.
and Viera was real Frenchman, yeah right.
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Beck
“Needless to say I don’t believe International Football is all that important”
well some of us do.
And we have the good grace to appreciate that many of our fellow gooners support other International teams apart from England.,
But amongst most Arsenal people, many are Londoners, and are English (from whatever background ) and want to see the National team do well. With Jack, Theo, Ox, Gibbs Jenks and more.
I don’t begrudge it at all, good luck to them. It helps Arsenal in the long term.
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Jack has a point, albeit badly articulated.
He is saying to the FA – fuck off wetting your selves over a two goal nobody and instead invest the resources in properly training junior players – from guess where?
England.
Now, where’s my white hood and flaming torch?
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i dont think anybody should be confused about what makes you something. a piece of paper cannot change what you feel. living in a place for five year cannot change who you are. you dont wait to become something, by the time you are waiting, what are you? if you ask eduado what he is, i’m sure he will tell you he is a brazilian. it is in the blood. how can anyone think living in england for five year makes you english. it can only qualify you to get the piece of paper but will never make you feel it in you.
worse still, the subject matter is even a boy who still has to wait for four years to APPLY. i disagree with anyone who think otherwise.
eligibility to represent a certain country is a different matter. if the rule allows it, fine. and if you have represented a country as a result of the rule that permitted you, it doesnt make you a native of that country.
so to ask jack what makes someone engligh is strange to me. is arsene wenger french or english? he’s been in london for 17 odd years! why is he still being dispised by every english media. why is he refered to as frenchman always if five years residency makes you a native.
politicians dont like to say the truth but jack is not a politician. so he should not be crucified for saying the truth. adnan januzaj is not english and in four years he can apply to play for england but that wont make him more english or less belgian.
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@DoubleCannister
“Well some of us do.
And we have the good grace to appreciate that many of our fellow gooners support other International teams apart from England.”
Why do we care about International football, where does this nationalism/love for your nation come from, I wrote before, what is nationalism but a giant tribal construct, telling you what you are and who you should be, it loudly defines people yet if you try to break free from it, you are the outcast, I don’t believe in such backwards digression.
I agree with you that England should invest in youth, but in Januzaj, that’s kind of what they are doing, he’s already lived in England 2 years, in 5 years, if he personally feels British/English and wants to play for England? I don’t see the problem in it.
People always see it as a loophole, Januzaj might grow to love England, (albeit at a different age) and see culture/language as his own identity.
People have to stop always thinking foreigners are trying to take advantage of loopholes, it is the law, there’s a reason that it is the law, you’d never ever have immigrants adapt otherwise.
@layksite
“i dont think anybody should be confused about what makes you something. a piece of paper cannot change what you feel. living in a place for five year cannot change who you are. you dont wait to become something, by the time you are waiting, what are you? if you ask eduado what he is, i’m sure he will tell you he is a brazilian. it is in the blood.”
I’m afraid you’re making an awful error in saying “it is in the blood”, the only thing in the blood are haemoglobin cells , protein and oxygen, with DNA that stretches millions of years, but only shows ethnic graph of perhaps 2,000 years depending on where you live and what technology they have.
Nothing in the blood makes you English, it makes you Anglo-Saxon and partly something else, prior to that it makes you from what ever Germanic tribe you were from, and prior to that whatever tribe your DNA was from before that, they all had different cultures to the one we have now, to say it is in the blood is an archaic point of view on how we evolve and who we are.
Eduardo might love Ukraine more than Brazil, he might feel more Ukrainian than Braziilan, I say this from the point of view of an immigrant, I’ve lived in over 6 countries and I identify with at least 4 of them, culturally, and identity wise, I cannot identify with all of them ethnicity wise, but if the object is to identify with them ethnicity wise, of course its silly, the object of the exercise begins to become xenophobic and racist, no ethnicity is above another mentally (unless you take pleasure in research suggesting some ethnicities have more mental capacity than others *without showing socio-economic effect)
Deco clearly felt more Brazilian than Portuguese, but it was the Portuguese and Angolan Portuguese who came as slaves who invaded Brazil, 300 years ago, you would think the culture its laughable almost how similar it would have been.
But he is a case apart, from probably the millions who immigrate at a certain age and begin to fall in love with the new country they are in.
And living in a place for 5 years, can definitely change who you are, it just depends on how open minded you are and how open you are to new ethnicities and new cultures.
I lived in Hong Kong for a year and learned Cantonese and wanted to live there forever if not for Visa issues, no one could tell me I wasn’t Cantonese in 6 years, if I spoke Cantonese, knew Canto politics, Canto food, Canto life style inside out.
The only ones who could tell me I wasn’t Cantonese would be the government, and if they said “ok you’re a permanent Hong Kong resident” which is the highest status there as a person.
When people laugh at that idea, I fear it has clear ethnic undertones, “lol you don’t look Chinese you could never be like them”
1. You could argue if the person is being short sighted in not even defining *them* but using their appearance above their culture.
2. No I could, I could be whatever I want (given the time/passion), I may never have their ethnic make up, but no person has the exact same ethnic make up, like I said, it becomes an exercise in futility.
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beck
do you think eduado, deco and the likes will take up arms and fight for their respective adopted country against brazil. do you think their respective country will trust them to lead them into the battle if way breake out between them and brazil. think about that and think about blood!
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It’s the interlull, all right.
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this is not about racism. it is about a national pride. its about identity. if you have lived in several countries and so dont feel attach to anyone more than the other, it may be a case of losing ones identity. if you hate people mentioning their families or countries and you think that amounts to racism, why are we still playing international games. let ozil play for england and ronaldo play for spain. it is the attitude of win at all cost that makes most countries discard their athlets in favour of stars from other countries. where is the joy of competing, the joy of wearing your nations colour. this days, it is so appalling see players who dont sing the anthem of the country they claim to represent. what is not worth dying for is not worth living for.
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In regards to international football, I for one enjoy the tournaments but not the qualifying. Some people don’t like it, but I consider it a part of the world football heritage. We have not reached one government, one love yet.
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i may need the government to tell me who is an english citizen, but i dont need them to tell me who an english man is.
anyway that is my opinion and it may be wrong. but like i said i disagree with any other. and we dont have to agree on matters like this that has nothing to do with arsenal.
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france world cup 1998…… france – brazil in the final…… ronaldo the phenomenon is ill, he is throwing up in the dressing room. the guy CAN NOT play football……
zagallo says: ‘thats alright, we are brasil, i have edmundo who scored 40 goals in all comps last season’
NIKE says: ‘ No its not alright, Ronaldo will play’
after that….what nations…what pride….what sport? ……
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why are we still playing international games.
cause they are fun tournaments in the summers which appeal to the masses in general ( me included – its all about the panini albums of course) and because it brings in millions of dollars/euros/pounds/yen/liras ..whatever … 🙂 ..
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Lol I’m not opposed to International Football/International Pride, I am opposed to the hypocrisy and little scope in understanding why we have borders, territories in which you deny others the right to enter, and a fundamentally unclear example of culture/ethnicity, distorted by media, governments and its own population to be something more than it is.
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@layksite
“i may need the government to tell me who is an english citizen, but i dont need them to tell me who an english man is.”
Subjective, this is entirely subjective, it is your experience of what an English man is, not a universal definition, remember that.
Plus again, the fatal flaw is that you’re not defining the English man, you are just using the whole stereotype of the English man to say “I know what an English man is, I don’t need someone to tell me who that is.”
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@layksite
“do you think eduado, deco and the likes will take up arms and fight for their respective adopted country against brazil. do you think their respective country will trust them to lead them into the battle if way breake out between them and brazil. think about that and think about blood!”
Lol dude the whole blood thing is a faux concept, its based on an ideology that is ultimately false.
Millions of people fight against their ethnicities and take side against them, if they disagree with them on certain cases, thousands of civil wars and in between fighting in tribal areas show that.
You are focusing on an aspect that is meant to mean a lot, but in reality it means little, I mean try to investigate the entire motive you have by thinking about the “blood” of a person.
You can’t decide what Eduardo and Deco will do, and if they do as you thought they would, it doesn’t mean millions of others won’t, an ideology is changed easily with discourse and experience.
My identity is not lost, I have different identities, I am not one person (not schizophrenic or have mpd) but that’s not my point, we are not taught to be spherical people like I am, I am the odd one out.
We are thought to love and support one thing, through the good and the bad lol.
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So many people sold out France and Norway in WW2, Poland too, they sold out their “kind”, fought for the other side because of an ideology, history teaches us so much.
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If there was a war between Iraq, U.K. and Norway and you asked me to take side or fight for one, I would tell you I would fight in the name of reason, that is the approach everyone should take I feel, not fight for *your land* (its never your actual country, you will be lucky enough to own land and it is only really ever borrowed), fight for what’s right.
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Alexander Beck
October 11, 2013 at 10:17 am
look for a book “the clash of civilisations and the remaking of world order” by samuel p huntington….apparently henry kissinger loves it…..since national pride, divide and conquer strategies and borders help us sell weapons 🙂 …. hehehe manipulation…keep them seperated keep them fighting ….rest and peace aint good for business or the merry go round of commerce …
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I am all for keeping it simple regarding eligibility – if you were not born in X then you cannot pull on a shirt, pick up a bat, or plunge into a pool on their behalf.
That might be disappointing some some poor soul who was dragged by Mum and Dad in their cradle over the border but at least it is comprehensive, not open to manipulation by either side, and fair.
Just say NO
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boom boom boom…. let me hear you say THEO…THEOOOOOOOOOO
horrible? should i hide?
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From the Manchester Evening News:
“Kenny Moyes, David’s brother who is an agent, was trying desperately to get hold of Ozil’s agent. I think that by the time they managed it it was too late.”
Right. Time to return to my darkened cell. I’ve been in there these past six weeks meditating upon the possible reasons why Arsene Vulture would swoop so late in the window after fuelling up on the morsel of CL qualification. Not to mention King Kong’s epic journey from London to Madrid, the girl in the white dress screaming (I think she was Real Mad’s accountant), Donkey Kong’s journey from Valencia to London… Carzola….Özil….no, I’m struggling to see the connections here. I only think about Arsenal 24/7, write two blogs and have been on three different podcasts (some with celebrity fans!!!!) and I still can’t figure it out. And Arsene fluked out again when he found an accidental CB in Sagna. Er.
Gnabry! Where did he come from?
Plan? Did someone mention a plan? Anyone? What in the blazing saddles is going on here?
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spare a minute or two for joey barton….. the hair , the clothes, the gestures…epic..hillarious
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I was forced to read that book at University
Lol.
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shit thats harsh…what did you study again?
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@Beck
I have noticed you seem focused on your own views but seem not to understand that others can have their views, a completely different and equally valuable worldview to your own. I like that word, ‘worldview’, apparently its a German thing. German philosophers eh, what would Cicero have thought of that?
My knowledge of football pales in comparison to basically every other poster on this site, so I try to say as little as possible and rather read, learn and absorb the gold nuggets the others drop.
However, your continued words of immigrants and ethnicity and national identity just do not make sense. You deny ‘blood’ as a key identifying factor in a person. Perhaps in your life, but for many who are born without the right colour in certain countries, or right family name in others, blood is an awfully important thing. “Blood” – although I would prefer a more accurate term, bloodline or lineage or ancestry, is vitally important in shaping many a person’s values. Shared values are passed down through the family and through the community, unless of course war and famine tears it down. You cannot move to another country and after a few short years say, ‘yip’, I’m Japanese or Hongkinese or English. Culture does not work that way.
I will say it simply. And outsider cannot be Chinese or Japanese or African or whatever not simply because of blood – although family ties and shared interests play a massive part in your ties to a land – but because of that German concept, worldview.
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@Hunter I did International Masters will be following
@Sav from Australia
My focus is not on my view, its on the view of me and my friends and my scholars and my professors and my academic peers and their strength in arguments.
If I and they have shown how strong arguments that do not think ancestry is integral to character, it is only integral because it is inferred, it is not a fact, it is inferred and constructed by your surroundings.
They probably don’t make sense to you because you did not have the education I did, not many have.
And yeah you can, I believe you can go wherever you want, live there long enough, learn language and become a part of that culture. Culture does work that way and its is the closed minded that intend for it not to work that way, but it is possible and it happens all the time.
I have met 100’s of Nigerian Cantonese people. They grow up speaking Cantonese and some of them don’t learn anything about Nigerian life or culture, just Cantonese, they are dark skinned and look nothing like the ancestral line of Cantonese people in the last 500 years, but they are Cantonese by identity, not by ethnic make up.
You can’t tell them they are not, you are inferring you can only have one ethnic make up to be a particular thing then.
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i think what he is trying to say is that ethnic/nationalistic/bloodline/ etc etc are mental restrains that lead to narrow points of view. (??)
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@Hunter13
PRECISELY,
People use those constrains to cause the human life form all kinds of sorrow.
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Beck,some of the best educated people I know ,are fucking idiots
Education does not=smart
Lack of education does not=stupid.
People are free to reject opinions,no matter how well educated.if their “smart” tells them its bollocks ,because they actually feel the reality.And its a different reality.
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“I have met 100′s of Nigerian Cantonese people. They grow up speaking Cantonese and some of them don’t learn anything about Nigerian life or culture, just Cantonese, they are dark skinned and look nothing like the ancestral line of Cantonese people in the last 500 years, but they are Cantonese by identity, not by ethnic make up.”
And do they play for China or Nigeria ?
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People use those constrains to cause the human life form all kinds of sorrow.
well you cant sell weapons and helicopters if you dont have the villages fighting with one another…
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hahah george….reality.
there cant be one reality for me and another for someone else…reality is one….
example:
1)wenger rules
that is not my reality ..that is objective reality ..it is the truth..
2) wenger sucks
that is not reality ..that is the subjective take of a bitter arsehole
….or maybe i should go back to thinking of theo chants…….(??) 🙂
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George, my education does not make me smart, I know I am smart, my mother said I was.
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@anicoll5
If they were good at football, you’d have to ask them,doubt they’d play for China, but more so Hong Kong, a big question would be, would it be socially acceptable for them to play for Hong Kong? or would it face the same as Italy faced with Balotelli?
A black Italian? surely not they said.
Balotelli is more Italian than Ferrari to me.
See, it is an absurd sentence (more Italian, less Italian) the concept itself denotes your value in how much you personify a stereotype, I am sick of them.
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And George, lack of education does suggest you are uneducated, and there is a line between education and intelligence, or so the student loans tell me, but you can still be a smarty smarts without a degree or GCSE’s or SATS, I’m sure, I think I’m sure.
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No idea what the uber hipster is singing about but it’s a good song!
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@Beck
“They probably don’t make sense to you because you did not have the education I did, not many have.”
Ouch! You may want to pursue a different path, lest you be perceived as condescending.
Interaction on this site tends to be more satisfying (not to mention positive!) when we focus on the strengths – or otherwise – of people’s arguments rather than questioning their abilities (or, ironically, in the context of this debate) their background.
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@Billy’s Boots
Apologies, comes across highly condescending and probably was very rude.
I’m sorry,
I took offence to the
“I have noticed you seem focused on your own views but seem not to understand that others can have their views, a completely different and equally valuable worldview to your own. I like that word, ‘worldview’, apparently its a German thing. German philosophers eh, what would Cicero have thought of that?”
I’ve travelled over 50 countries, lived in half a dozen of them, speak various languages fluent, it hurts me that someone thinks I’m regurgitating my own view instead of thousands of hours of research and hard work. That I do not have a world view despite all the effort I put in to understand how others think.
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@Beck
No worries. I’m sure it wasn’t your intention to come across that way.
You have started an interesting debate. Let’s see where it takes us!
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First of all you can all f**k off because I’m a direct descendant of Pythagoras, King Leonidas, the leader of the Spartan warriors that fell at Thermopylae and Miltiades the Athenian general that defeated the Persians at Marathon.
The Battle of Marathon was a watershed in the Greco-Persian wars, showing the Greeks that the Persians could be beaten; the eventual Greek triumph in these wars can be seen to begin at Marathon. Since the following two hundred years saw the rise of the Classical Greek civilization, which has been enduringly influential in western society, the Battle of Marathon is often seen as a pivotal moment in European history.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Marathon)
Therefore, dear fellow positivistas, the existence of Arsenal Football Club cannot have come about without the defeat of the Persians at Marathon. You are all welcome to put that in your pipes to smoke…including Jack Wilshere…..
Oh, lest I forget, two of the most dumb people I know have PhDs…..
PG, when is the next Talking through the A**e? It’s long overdue….
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We recorded it last night Georgaki.
Hunters great post the other night was stolen by me and I pretend I said it it.
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PG is spot on…
My mother’s education was curtailed when she was still in primary school when the Italians, and later the Germans occupied her village in Greece during WWII. They took over the school building and the children had to make do with schooling in the village church. That couldn’t last. Villages in the mountains of Greece get extremely cold in winter. Just one reason why schooling was not viable. My mum is one of the brightest people I know.
My dad had even less education than my mum. Born into abject poverty in Cyprus. He was also one of the brightest people I have known….
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What’s up folks?!
Thanks for this Beck…this is fascinating.
How would one implement Wilshere’s beliefs?
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Georgaki, likewise, I am uneducated man by today’s standard and I am one of the brightest people I know. (Smiley thingy)
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I dont understand how you can say that Paul,when you “know” me
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Where have you been Paul? I was beginning to think we had lost you to a rival site!
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Hey Paul-N are you going to try hard to join us for the next ‘virtual’ game? All you need is a google email account the google hangouts app…..
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Georgaki-pyrovolitis
October 11, 2013 at 1:12 pm
🙂 ..ahaha ..lmfao…..when i was discovering the distance between earth and sun the others were still on trees eating bananas…. ahahahahah
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No George! Never that!
Still trying to settle back in Florida. Moved into a new place yesterday, once I get that straightened out I will be around on the regular.
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