Today a guest post from The Beck.
Last night, the Telegraph released an interview with Jack Wilshere. He was speaking to the infamous/famous Henry Winter about his views on the possibility of Adnan Januzaj representing England.
This is what he was directly quoted to have been saying:
“If you live in England for five years it doesn’t make you English, the only people who should play for England are English people.”
“If you live in England for five years it doesn’t make you English. You shouldn’t play. It doesn’t mean you can play for a country. If I went to Spain and lived there for five years I’m not going to play for Spain.’’
Immediately after I was aware, I began to ask myself if there was any way I could possibly defend Jack for his comments and I realized that I couldn’t.
I’m aware that he is a young man, 2 years younger than me, and that he’s possibly lived a life growing up where his national identity was never in question and his views on “Englishness” was always pre-defined by his surroundings. Questioning the intellect of most footballers will usually not get you very far in accomplishing anything, but I truly believe he has brought up an interesting subject to discuss and to elaborate on. In the first quote, Jack directly attributes that that his version of being English is universal and cannot be changed. His version of national identity appears static and archaic to me.
“If you live in England for five years it doesn’t make you English” – and I suppose you’d have to ask, why not? Who sets these time constrictions on what it would take for someone to have an accurate grasp of English identity and culture? The government certainly does based on both research and economical aspects. When Jack is saying this, he’s not thinking about all the players who became citizens elsewhere and played for their new adopted country, whether they loved that country, or were grasping that culture and identity is completely subjective and personal to them, it is not something we can decide for others.
Luis Figo, once dismissed Deco for being part of the Portuguese team prior to the Euro 2004 (where they were both hosts and finalists and Deco played a vital role), Figo said:
“I don’t think people would be happy in Spain if I had become a Spanish national and played for the Spanish side,” said the Real Madrid midfielder. “It’s something that distorts team spirit and I don’t agree with it. If you’re born Chinese, well, you have to play for China.”
“It looks like you’re trying to take advantage of something. That’s my opinion and I’m not going to change it because he is in the team.”
Figo there has already decided that Deco was using Portugal, taking advantage of a situation, when in fact it was Portugal who were taking advantage of his new citizenship too.
Deco responded by saying:
“I don’t regret choosing to play for Portugal, I was born in Brazil and it would be a lie to say that I’m Portuguese now and not Brazilian. But I love Portugal and I love playing for the national team.”
See Deco’s experience is also subjective, he recognizes his Brazilian identity to be higher than his Portuguese, but it is not difficult to imagine it the other way around. We live in a very multicultural society in an ever-growing multicultural world, we recognize many different tribal and nationalistic ideas and associate them and stereotype them with what we/our governments and media see fit. The debate was high and live last night, many were suggesting that age mattered, that there was a certain point where players stop adapting to culture or want to belong to another culture, that it is just purely convenient for them to swap nationalities so that they gain caps.
Marcos Senna became a citizen of Spain at the age of 29 and won the European Championship with Spain in 2008. Many would argue that he did so to his advantage, but did not Spain get the advantage too? Was it not convenient for Spain to have a citizen of its country play for them and win them the trophy? So many questions; you all know where I am going with this. Plenty of players in the Spain squad feel more Catalan than Spanish, yet they play for Spain, they love Spain, they play for Spain because they know collectively they will win trophies (some play for Catalonia too).
Owen Hargreaves is another good example, born in Canada, raised in North America, moved to Bayern Munich at 16, lived there until he was 26 before moving to Manchester. He amassed 42 caps for England until the injuries got the better of him, he probably felt more German than English at times? Or more Canadian than German? Or more English than Indian? I don’t know, it gets all confusing, but are we in the game to guess what players feel and how they think before asking them how they truly feel?
I feel like that is one of the biggest flaws in this debate, we assume what players want and ultimately believe they want to “take advantage”, expecting them not to be as “English” as the “Englishman” (vague term, so vague).
Colin Kazim-Richards born in London, raised in England, plays for Turkey, his mother is a Cypriot Turk and his father is Antiguan, does it get confusing yet?
“It’s difficult because half my family is Muslim, and the other half is Christian. I’ve always felt Turkish, though. My nene [grandmother], she can’t speak English. Half of my family, their first language is Turkish, and so I went to Turkish school before I played football, although I can’t remember any of it now”
Owen Hargreaves may have grown up feeling German but playing for England, Colin Kazim Richards may have felt Turkish in that interview, but felt very English had he been a better player? Who knows? I just find it hard to see how footballers and fans have the audacity to tell players and people how to feel and what to be about their national identity? It is you, yourself that gets to choose what you want to be, not them, not an oppressor or a simpleton.
“But you have to have English roots.”
Say that to all the Jamaicans that came to the U.K. in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s and became part of the English national team in the 70’s, how they themselves must see the irony in the apparent need for roots. The need for those former Jamaican men that became naturalized British citizens to play was huge. Besides, the whole concept of English roots is absurd. If you need to look into that, there are thousands of pages about DNA and how none of us are a 100% anything, (except me; I’m a 100% pure blooded twat.
Each government that is part of the EU/EEA has substantially given each person a chance to discover another country and become a resident of it, perhaps even share the national identity of it. I am a person who has taken those chances (through war and opportunity), a person who feels no particular tie to one specific country/administrative state/stateless state, but half a dozen, Iraq, Kurdistan, Norway, England, Wales, Hong Kong.
I am a piece of all of them, but I am also none of them.
I’ve seen many people over the age of 30 adapt to a new culture and totally capture it, a friend of mine never felt American and moved to Japan, he speaks the language, lives the culture, is part of the Japanese identity, especially to himself (as he might be an outcast to others). Who am I to tell him that he’ll never be Japanese to me? Isn’t that an oppressive archaic view of nationality and personal identity, that someone’s personal state of national identity is directly related to my own lack of perspective?
Who is Jack Wilshere or any of you to say Januzaj won’t fall in love with British culture/values/identity and become more than a naturalized citizen?
Who is to say he won’t feel English or British in 6 years? People change, people adopt values that adhere to their reason sometimes, it is not always back to tradition and thinking that it always is perhaps why we are having this debate right now (or I’m having it by myself).
What is a nationality, but a giant tribal government construct on what you are or who you should be?
You know, I grew up with a Geordie, a Brummie, a Mancunian, a Scouser and a Cornish man and none of them could ever tell me what it meant to be English other than to point to regurgitated stereotypes that some of them were not even fond of. To each of them, it was different, they had different views on many different things, and the thing that made them English to me was probably the language and the location.
To measure someone’s Englishness is an exercise in taking a stereotype from a world full of propaganda, stereotypes and agenda’s and turning it against those who do not practice it. You could effectively have English ancestors, be born in England, raised in England but not feel English. People are very complex and to simplify them is a disservice to both their thoughts and abilities to change and grow and become more than a piece of propaganda or national pride (tribal/government construct).
If you look at all countries as if they were all going through a constant transitional cultural change, I believe your view on nationality would change, but most only see it in the moment.
Have a lovely day.
Should you wish to take The Beck to task or agree with him,he can be found on twitter @The_Beck_
Positively Arsenal 
Hunter 3:18pm
Respectfully — no, it’s not an exclusively English thing.
i beleive we all read alistair brookshaws piece about how the culture here was one of the main reasons wenger gets so misunderstood and harshly treated…
its cause he exposes them as being totally shit at football and in their deeper philosophy and meanings of football or sports/entertainment’s role in our society…
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Not so sure that we have to live with Jack’s comments until he grows up (we all hope he does), Wenger or any manager could grow tired with his antics, he needs to approach situations the correct way, footballers heads are bigger than they should be and any more attention often causes rifts and destabilizes player’s growth or consistency.
He is England’s new golden boy, of course he is a fantastic player filled with great ability.
But Wilshere could learn from Ramsey, no?
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oh and dc respectfully it wasnt the fans of nigeria or quebec that started the 8 years trophyless shit..it was english media and chavs with mancs making fun of us for dropping ther pace to build our ground….. it wasnt the danish media that started calling our players foreign soft pussies. it wasnt the referees from america that allowed barbaric bastards to smash our players legs…it wasnt french tv panels or german newspapers pissing on wenger and arsenal 24/7/365 the last 7-8 years…..
the ones you say in nigeria finland quebec america wherever simply joined a bandwagon cause weak characters exist everywhere
im not talkign about the weak who probably dont even knwo what tehyre watching..im talking baou the concsious and systematic methods of character assasination our club policies manager and players have had to endure from very english cultural traits
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maybe there is another point being missed here.
It’s not about Jack.
On the BBC site:
Where is the next generation?
English under-21s* made up 2.28% of the total minutes played in 2012-13 with Chelsea, Manchester City, Stoke, Swansea and Wigan failing to field an English player under 21 all season.
The figure falls behind Italy (2.38%), Spain (3.40%), Germany (6.22%) and France (7.32%).
* refers to players born in the country or who have moved to the country for non-football reasons.
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He is England’s new golden boy,
exactly…and in my totally biassed opinion he should say “fuck you” to that notion….unfortunately he seems to be enjoying it a bit….
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look if it secures us ( arsenal) a better treatment from refs ..then agent wilshere might as well pretend to be the golden boy as his country requires…but only if it means better terms for arsenal on the pitch. 🙂
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you scratch my …. .i scratch yours….if thats teh case then i can agree.
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We can all agree Ramsey is a much wiser head on the shoulders of a young man than Jack.
H13 – Yes, there are a large group of English media (and the fucknuts of MOTD!) gunning to get rid of Wenger for years. A lot of WOB’s have been encouraged to joint the bandwagon.
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“If you are good enough, it does not matter where you come from.”
says Jack, elsewhere in the same interview.
I wouldn’t put jack in the EDL or BNP league, yet.
I would focus on Chelsea and Man City giving no chances to up and coming kids (never mind English) at all.
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@Beck 5.25pm
Oh I agree. But as hunter alluded to Jack might be enjoying a little too much of being in the lime light, as you would expect of an young outgoing person. To give him the benefit of doubt, he might just be trying to live up to ppls expectations. Just a little too hard. And to be fair to him, as most likely the future center of the Arsenal and england national team, his presence at the podium will be required. So he might aswell get use to it now and get those well needed media training sessions ASAP. Thank god he did admitt to inhale. See, he can learn 😉
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If,at the age of 21 ,someone had asked me for my views on jingoism ,I would have told them that it was a dance I wasn’t. familiar with.
Honestly,wtf?
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I am glad to hear Gervinho has found his confidence at Roma.
I think the only players who should play for an NT are natural born citizens and citizens who were brought to their current countries when they were younger than eighteen, for non-football reasons.
I consider what Deco, Eduardo and Senna did NT shopping. They weren’t picked for Brazil and decided to play for weaker NTs in order to participate in high profile tournaments. If I played for England, say, I wouldn’t want my NT to be filled with rejects from stronger FAs. This bothers me as much as Chelsea and Man City buying trophies. If FIFA allows this FA shopping, they may as well abolish international tournaments and only allow club football.
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Becks, Wenger tend to treat his players as grown ups. And in this instance Jack didn’t actually do anything wrong. He answered to a question and the answer isn’t even deemed to be controversial by most.
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If we want to be critical it should be at FA. Why call him up for the press conference at this time? They are milking him.
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Uh oh missus is drunk.
Throughly enjoyed the discussion, very swnsitive topic, thanks beck.
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Maybe this guy is English enough to play for England:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/naked-drunk-passenger-tasered-by-police-after-challenging-flight-captain-to-a-fight-8868367.html
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That is behaviour in the finest traditions of English/British drunkenness DK – I salute that man
That is a real, darkened-room-the-following-day, Noooooooooooo
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Poor Jack. Tough week, bless his heart. He could indeed take a leaf out of Aaron’s book. Remember what he said when asked about Coleman sniffing around trying to get Shawcross to play for Wales? Something along the lines of “The manager chooses the team. I just turn up and play”. Question not answered, move along, nothing to see here. I don’t see a PR savvy, non-answer being in Jack’s makeup, though. It’s just not who he is. Unless he gets a personality transplant, these media controversies are always going to find him. And he (and Arsenal’s PR team) will deal with them. Just part of the package with Jack. And that’s ok.
I vote Aaron for future captain.
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@AG That was a given!
—–
One of the things I like about PA is the cosmopolitan mix of people who contribute.
When one considers how much more multicultural Britain has become over the last several years, it is interesting to note that while the standard of football in the Premier League has improved, the standard of the home national teams (as measured by relative competitive success) has not.
While other areas of life (eg music, cooking, fashion, architecture) have drawn inspiration (and stolen ideas!) from these cultural influences, the England team has seemingly failed to do so. Although the make-up of the England team is relatively diverse, the way they play – perhaps the way the England fans demand they play – cannot be said to have blended the best of other cultures with the best of its native attributes.
It may be unfair, but contrasting the England national team with the club sides in England that have been successful over the last several years does not reflect very favourably on those at the FA. It is easy to see why AW is both so admired (for creating this wonderful blend) – and hated (for being perceived as ‘showing up’ those who cannot do what he has done).
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Apropos
Misuse drink at 10 to seven, on a school night?
How English.
Or Scottish, or Irish….
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nationalism sucks, the answer is scrap international football, waste of time. will solve a lot of problems and eliminate crap arguments like this jack story.
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A bit sweeping.
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Moving on….
(For a while)
It looks like Dortmund now have a typically Arsenal sized injury list.
They could be just trying to dodge these internationals too.
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Still Kings of London!
http://www.arsenal.com/news/features/49250/behind-the-numbers-
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Really interesting well written piece Beck. I think I’ll stay out of this one, but a reading of JW’s twitter bio would not lead anyone to be surprised about his simplistic view on Englishness. Ultimately my only interest in JW is what he can do for Arsenal. The rest is neither here nor there.
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@Passenal
I agree with you, my grimace is not towards Jack, I expect him to have a simplistic view on it, the reactions of others around me, well that’s what surprised me, how basic their understanding is too.
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@Gary
I am not in favour of nationalism, but that is another debate for another blog in another website haha
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H13 – Yes, there are a large group of English media (and the fucknuts of MOTD!) gunning to get rid of Wenger for years. A lot of WOB’s have been encouraged to joint the bandwagon.
heh and why do you think that is ? my theory is that football is the last fort to claim any sort of national identity and having a frenchman with a funny accent ridiculing the this sporting national identity with trigonometric passing and 26.12.00 records…ehhh its a bitter pill to swallow… a kind of ” who the fuck are you to teach us football, we discovered the game, go back to france” …. however the arsenal fan whould have seen through all that and of course the players and when approached my journalists they should say ” arent you that arsehole who was calling for wenger’s head 2 months ago? you want an interview from me now do you?”
isnt the “we want our old arsenal back” a nostalgic cry to an identity of hardmen hoofing it to the striker? hasnt this civil rift between arsenal fans been caused by those who identified with the gg era and those who identify with the pires era? i think it is……. and i would wish that our players whether they are english french german spannish or whatever else to REMEMBER how the culture of this country has treated them……they are not our friends…neither do they care if we do good or not….
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I think too much is being expected of Jack from some quarters. What we mustn’t forget is that professional football is a world in which men remain boys/lads until they retire in their mid-thirties. Mummy is replaced by the club, which does their washing, makes sure they get up in time, raps their fingers if they say or do something naughty (while secretly thinking that they’re kind of cute anyway) and, who knows, maybe even wipes their arse. So expecting most footballers to understand the ramifications of a leading question like the one asked yesterday before they’re about 38 is expecting too much. I don’t quite understand the FA putting him up for the press conference yesterday anyway – I think it was very polite of him to answer, considering how the media has hounded him over a sneaky fag. Mummy should be pleased..
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yes dkgooner thats one way of putting it…another way is that since he is an arsenal player and since he has been there long enough to witness with his very eyes how the press has treated his Mummy- what with having his fellow brothers nearly amputated – to raise the middle one to any notion that suddenly he is the english saviour, the english zidanne or the great hope or the great english ten that will give interviews and conferences and what else….. another way of looking it is that its close to a little englander;s mentality and i would have thought the education and upbringing from Mummy is on a 180 degree opposite direction….
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Xabi Alonso quote from 2011: ” I can’t get into my head that football development would educate tackling as a quality, something to learn, to teach, a characteristic of your play. How can that be a way of seeing the game? I just don’t understand football in those terms. Tackling is a [last] resort, and you will need it, but it isn’t a quality to aspire to, a definition. It’s hard to change because it’s so rooted in the English football culture, but I don’t understand it.”
Jack Wilshere, 2013: “‘We have to remember what we are. We are English. We tackle hard, are tough on the pitch and are hard to beat”.
so maybe the proper question should be ..what the fuck has football culture got to do with national identity ? national identity is formed by tradition and customs of the people, the family, the history of the nation, the language…not a fucking sport…sports are not primary factors of national identity formation….right? oh but no…here they use football as a means to form a national identity..thats what i disagree with.
the catalans, who are equally “stuck” in national identity debates and fights with the rest of spain but their football culture is dutch + latin america … not spannish nor catalan…
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as for arsenal now and here is where i might manage to explain that day about “class” always being part of the club a bit better. when wenger came to us we did everything in a very english manner…… he kept one thing…the ‘english’ passion for the game….and he brought with him in order to combine with englihs passion :
‘german’ organisation and efficieny
‘french’ liberalism to express yourself
‘ducth’ philosophy of total football and all players moving and being comfortable in multiple positions
“american” levels of growth and development of all departments includinf medical and training technologies
“african” athleticism and devotion
‘japanese’ philosophy of not being a dick when you win so as not to offend the opponent
‘italian’ or ‘latin’ artistry and trickery
these influences which to me form a huge part of Arsenal;s class and reputation around the world were not at the club before his appointment, i insist.
it is these influences that have kept arsenal consitstent and comeptitve at the highest level of the sport for so many years
and…to top it all off…he built as a stadium which is like a nasa project
this is our soul.
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@Hunter
You have to write a blog about this on P.A.?
It’s very important
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Interesting article Beck. Quite a contentious topic but you articulated yourself well.
While I am not qualified to comment on what it means to be English, I would like to mention what you about Japan, because I have studied their culture. A unique and insular people, of all of Asia, they alone survived the onslaught of conquest and cultural subjugation, aided by their island isolation and an inward looking culture. Of course they were finally westernized with the conquest of the Americans. But if I moved there, as much as I might accept their culture, I would always be Gaijin, a foreigner. Rather than look down upon the Japanese for this attitude, I admire them for it. It is a product of their culture. I think my long winded point is that in some cases you are confusing nationalism with culture.
As far as England goes, maybe the point Jack was trying to make was on footballing culture and the passion to fight for England on the field. While others are jumping at the Man Utd wonder kid to playfor England, iI think what Jack said needed to be said, in as far as the debate it has generated it healthy and necessary.
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Alexander Beck October 9, 2013 at 11:01 pm
hmmm …hehe not really …. whoever gets it, gets it.
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Hunter 10.58
That is the best comment on this site for months,perhaps ever.
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Arsene Wenger defends Jack Wilshere’s ‘English’ comments
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24469540
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George, force him to write a blog about it please.
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Arsene Wenger isn’t actually defending Jack, he’s twisting it 180 to make Jack look better, Arsene himself is doing exactly what my blog has done, questioning what it is to be English, saying players from multi cultural backgrounds have reason to do the things they do and that it is not as vague as people put it.
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confusing nationalism with culture.
&
footballing culture and the passion to fight for England on the field
the first one is spot on and it is a huge confusion. but i also think that by rallying the troops to fight for England on the field sounds like a nationalistic perception closer to a field of war than a football pitch. perhaps an unfortunate concept to be part of a football set up/culture/way of play. i doubt they approach it like that in low’s camp or in any other serious camp that is focused on the game and how to outsmart and outrun opponents…..it is a different “fight’ than then one Jack is talking about…if you go out on the football pitch with ‘the passion to fight for england’ you are more likely to waste energy running like a headless chicken thinking about battles rather than stretching the field of play, and having the clarity of mind to see teammates and their moves and play one touch and quick and execute the manager’s tactics/plan. if youre calm serious and confident you dont need to fight at all, you step in and just do it.
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heh george..thanks man..what can i say…addiction…
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henry was wearing the puma shirt essentially telling us ” im coming in january” …does anyone know why cazorla’s foot is in a protective boot ?
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10.58 Hunter
Killer
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To be fair Hunter where else would it be so easy to meld ‘german’ organisation and efficieny
‘french’ liberalism to express yourself
‘ducth’ philosophy of total football and all players moving and being comfortable in multiple positions
“american” levels of growth and development of all departments includinf medical and training technologies
“african” athleticism and devotion
‘japanese’ philosophy of not being a dick when you win so as not to offend the opponent
‘italian’ or ‘latin’ artistry and trickery’ than London it is it’s own country really, I found that people really identified as London no matter where they set off from.
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i woudnt call it easy but yes i get your point. However football is something they take a bit more patriotic and since most of these twat journalists come from mainland and not from capital they will write to appeal to the traditional values of the game and their culture. We are in 2013 , in London, and the press still calls foreigners divers and that theyre ruining their game…..lol…..the fact that their refs are completely useless is where they should focus rather than tagging foreigners as the evildoers
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i have read all comments with keen interest since yesterday. everyone has spoken well, though with divergent views.
there are lots of hypocrisy everywhere. on one hand, we want players to represent their countries no matter how small or remote their chances are in doing well in major tounaments. on another hand we are quick to judge players greatness based on their international achievements.
i have heard from several people that messi has to justify his greatness by winning the world cup. despite the fact he has broken every living records in record times.
if he had taken the easiest option of playing for spain, he could have won two by now. george wear chose to play for liberia and didnt even make it to world cup while many africans have played for france and won the world cup. if george had played for france he could have done the same. especially coming from a war torn nation, he has every reason to dump his native country.
we have to start cheering players who stood by their country despite the obvious disadvantages. players greatness shouldnt be measure by international achievements rather they should be encourage to take pride in representing their countries.
another side to this is that players should also be allowed to play to the highest level. for instance a player who is doing well but is not allowed to represent his country should be free to represent another country he has lived for a certain period of time. players like arteta for instance should be allowed the feel of international football by playing for maybe england. since spain have decided that you have to play for madrd of barcelona to get into the national team. i like to see arteta in world cup.
my point is if a player is invited by his native country, he must play for them. but if there is no opportunity of playing for his country he should be free to represent a country that next in line.
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and i think it was more of a scenario of wenger telling the club “look people what you have here is nice but we can do a lot better, embrace diversity and dont be afraid to learn new things from skillsets around the world’ rather than the club telling him “right mr wenger we do thingswith an international approach and philosophy here” …i term it as coming and opening their eyes in possibilities they hadnt thought about
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on another hand we are quick to judge players greatness based on their international achievements.
true but thats what simpletons do…judge players team and managers according to trophy stats and not memmories… football has advanced into such a level of expertise that it is not the game for the masses anymore…it might appeal to the masses in the simple ways as before but to understand the game today and what happens in training and tactcial set ups and mediacl advancements and financil implications make it into almost a science… ok football aint formula1 yet but not that far in terms of preparation and training. …i mean we have indoor training pitch for hwen it rains…and dortmund has a pass/shooting robot for players to practice..i wont even go into the cybex and other monitoring technologies for players fitness and recovery status……it has become a sport for intellectuals almost lol….especially arsenal is for elite football followers….
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i have heard from several people that messi has to justify his greatness by winning the world cup.
no i dont think they are asking him that to justify his greatness but only in terms of surpassing maradonna as the greatest ever….
and its true imo.
i odnt think there is a debate whether messi is one of the greatest its just a silly game for journalists to see if anyone can surpass diego.
its a diego vs messi comparison rather than a “is he great or not” dilema
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Hunter, et Al
Back in the very early days of football, there was a huge demand in England for Scottish players, as these were seen as far more technically skilled than their English counterparts.
Early Arsenal owes a debt to these Scots.
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