“No one is bigger than the club.”
I was asked a simple and fair question on twitter some time ago by Andy Wood @yorkshiregunner .
“Tell me George, will you still support Arsenal when Arsene leaves?”
(As people continue to misquote my reply here again is the blog I wrote about it)
Now I understand that it was a snide question, a loaded question, designed to suggest that Arsene was more important to me than the club. I knew that before I answered with this:
Not for 100% sure. It would be hard to think I won’t. But I could stop. It’s like a marriage for me, not a family. If you follow?”
This of course was immediately interpreted to mean: “I will stop supporting if Arsene leaves.” Just as I had anticipated!
People then started screaming that one’s support for the club should be unconditional. “ARSENAL TILL I DIE!!”
And all the other soundbites people use.
Then they saw fit to state the obvious with gems like:
No shit Sherlock, I had missed that.
As the Twitter exchange continued, I tried to explain that I could not guarantee always supporting the club, because if it changed into something different to that I was in love with, it would no longer be my club.
This concept seemed beyond the comprehension of a few, and some claimed that NOTHING could make them withdraw their support. Ever.
There’s an irony here, in case you hadn’t already spotted it …
So I came up with the most outrageous scenario I could think of, just to test their ‘position’ and asked if they would still support the club if the following occurred:
The club is bought by the English Defence League and all our players are sold, only white heterosexuals are allowed to play for the club. Do you still support?
Almost every right thinking person would say:
“No, it’s a stupid scenario, but no.”
My point being that ALL support is conditional. It’s just the conditions that are required to be met are different, and they vary from person to person.
What some people fail to understand is that “the club” means different things to different people.
My definition of “the club” includes the playing style, its class, history and integrity. The manager, board and players are a large part of that. The whole ethos of the club is what I regard “the club” to be.
Someone told me that “the club” to him was the badge, and that is what he supported. He didn’t mention whether the badge in question was cotton or man-made, so I reserved my judgement on him.
But, nonetheless, for him, the definition of the club was different.
My main point in all of this is that regardless of your personal definition of what the club – or anything you have fallen in love with – is, if that thing you fell in love with, changes to the degree where they or it becomes something or someone you would never have originally fallen for, then it is ENTIRELY possible to fall back out of love.
And this patently includes, even, one’s own chosen football club.
Now, if you are happy to support a club, fuelled by petro-dollars, managed by a hoof-ball specialist or filled with players like Barton, Suarez, Terry, Savage, Cole and Rooney – then great. But I would find it hard to continue that support, ultimately, even if that club was my beloved Arsenal.
It would be a gradual deterioration of the relationship between me and the club, but given the perfect (and frankly unlikely) storm, I COULD stop supporting.
There has been a lot of “I want my Arsenal back” going around in recent times.
Well, I personally want to keep THIS one.
These people that claim to ‘want their Arsenal back’ are effectively saying this current Arsenal is not “their” club.
Effectively, they’ve withdrawn their support already.
This is evidenced by their relentless attacks on the club and it’s staff – on Twitter, in blogs, on radio phone-ins etc. Those individuals who have given up their season ticket have clearly withdrawn their support. They are, as a result, no longer proper pucka Gooners are they?
The anger evident in their remarks is quite possibly driven by the pain they are feeling from losing their love for the club.
Well, maybe they ARE still Gooners.But they have simply come to a point where their support has been withdrawn. Do they watch on TV instead? Or has that been given up too? Have they stopped reading the papers? Do they no longer talk about Arsenal?
If they are still Gooners, it’s clear that bit-by-bit they are losing – or have lost – their love for the club as the conditions that led them to support in the first place are no longer seemingly evident.
For THEM, at least.
Now people can say that they are better fans than me because they have supported longer, spent more money, attended more games, live in the area of the ground or because nothing could stop them supporting. I won’t argue.
I certainly won’t care what they think either.Because they can claim all day long that they are the ‘real’ supporters of the club. But the reality, actually, is that they are drifting away from the club with every attack they launch.
***
Finally someone said:
“Morals in football are bollocks.”
To which I replied:
“Morals are only ever bollocks to those without them.”
I however ,am the last person to judge people on their morals.That does not mean they are any less important.
Positively Arsenal 
Well said.
Accurate, given all the bollox written about our club
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It’s not a question of “Could I stop supporting Arsenal”. If the club was bought, as in your suggestion, by the EDL, I certainly wouldn’t attend games or give them money but what would be the first result I looked for at 4.45 on a Saturday……Arsenal, of course. The one thing I can say for certain is that I could never support any other team and for me this is where the concerns start.
There are many, many people whose desire is to be associated with glory, they jump on bandwagons and then moan when things go wrong and eventually they leave the club to seek other ego-massaging sources of satisfaction. Arsenal doesn’t need those people but sadly we have many (they sit behind me at the Emirates and moan about anything without any real insight or knowledge). The one great thing about the pre-Wenger days was that we didn’t have glory hunters, they’re everywhere now but because their real need is to be able to brag that they support a successful club, they are now dissatisfied. I wish they would leave the club and allow genuine supporters to do just that, “support”!
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good article and a great topic.
The “I want my Arsenal Back ” are in the most part glory hunters, I have seen many who spout it say they want to be able to brag about AFC success. They are also the sort who so often come out with stuff like “Arsenal are the laughing stock of the entire league”, or “I’m ashamed of Arsenal, or ashamed to say I support Arsenal”.
Another smaller group of those who want their Arsenal back are middle aged men who appear to be in a little bit of a mid life crisis, looking to recapture their youth, when they had no adult responsibilities to deal with, could go out drinking, fighting and watching football, with little effect on them. Its Arsenal’s fault that they are now adults with adult life to deal with.
I have supported Arsenal for nearly 50 years, I have seen many great seasons, many more great days, but way way more bad seasons and bad days. I have supported Arsenal, I have supported Mee, Neil, Howe, Graham, Rioch and Wenger. I will likely support the next manager too, only one that I could never support is Mourinho, and if he was ever to become our manager it would very likely lead to me giving up on Arsenal. No I would never support another club, that just is not for me.
My support for Arsenal would wane big time if we went down the sugar daddy route, no matter what success it brought. For me football has been ruined by the financial doping the likes of city and chelsea have brought to the game. If Arsenal followed suit that would be the last straw.
I don’t want my Arsenal back, I want a successful Arsenal, in fact I want a more successful Arsenal than we have ever seen before, I don’t want it for bragging rights, I want it cos I support Arsenal.
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Could I do it for Arsenal ? Could I accept Jose Mourinho as manager of Arsenal football club ? I don’t know, I really don’t.
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Oh go on then – I would
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I would give it a swerve until his short tenure was over.
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You mean get him in – give him enough rope then …..?
Snap
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By god there is some brilliant football on tonight
Barca Ajax and Roma Bayern
Football orgy
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Not in a Tony Pulis sense obviously
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I do not believe the current Arsenal Board of Directors, would agree to employ “the Special One”.
People have studied the training methods, he uses, and written a book about sessions held in California.
If one follows football, then one can follow different clubs in different leagues. Football is the initial attraction, not necessarily the club. When the involvement includes following a certain club, then and only then does the club become the prime concern.
Rather like cheese, but Stilton cheese! What about “Stinking Bishop”., or the Stratford variety for Xmas?
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0-4 Munchen after 30 minutes.
Blimey.
Think I can understand why Groaner pin up of the moment, Mr. Klopp (he’s better then Moyes or Coyle I suppose…) gave up “competing” in a two team league before the Arsenal game (first CL game of the season for them!).
Sponsered by Philips and Adidas, a corporate giant Munchen may be, but what kind of excuse is that for Dortmund?
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It is hell in Rome hell
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And this Roma team did so well at the Etihad
Kaboom
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0-5
Crikey.
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“I do not believe the current Arsenal Board of Directors, would agree to employ “the Special One”
Fair to say that is a reasonable guess. Considering GG got the hook for taking what is considered to be an entree at best in most modern transfer ‘negotiations’, and the welcome that was given to Primorac at the club.
How can the Groaners follow this Arsene FC meme, when anyone who knows the history of this fooitball club understands that the board sets the policy! It is either because they have lost their minds, or they are being completely and utterly disingenious. One, or the other.
DC the other day you said Yogi was a clever Groaner. I like Yogi but after he refused to acknowledge the sdcale of the rebuilding at AFC over the last three years I’m not so suire about that – please refer to B.Rodgers latest comments on settling his squad, entirely understanable, on the scale of the job required in replacing an uber-player in a squad. It’s not the same as just selling and buying when you talking about such talent at the top of their game, the impact is massive. AFC replaced two in two, whilst staying in touch etc. The weird myopia exhbited in that particular oversight from the Groaners and ACLF in particular reminds me of those gallent podcastateers critising Ozil after the Gazprom game, when it was obvious to anyone watching the football (with the aid of the TV footage, harder in the ground I guess) that the player picked up a knock during tha game. Some of the Groaners love the sound of their own voice so much that they can be observed to be ignoring happens/occurs on the pitch whilst spouting forth.
A little bit funny, if it wasn’t so sad.
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Manolas? Hunter knows!
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For the avoidance of doubt I regard the prospect of Jose at Ems on a par with my own prospects of the white smoke being seen over the Vatican and my ( well deserved) enthronement upon the seat of St Peter.
However the question for a football fan, particularly one as priveleged as I have been for 50 years, is how would I feel if Arsenal never won a trophy again, not even a COC ? Never qualified for the CL ? Not even the Thursday Cup ?
I would love it – my team – richer poorer sickness health trophies and fuck all
The journey never the destination
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Can you imagine the opportunities for the über bloggers to tell the club what it is doing wrong and how the club should be run, the players should be managed, who should be signed and sold after a few mid table seasons ?????
Mwahgahahahhhahahahah
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Maybe relegation is the answer? Just kidding!
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Gervais gets his goal, so does Ribery. 1-6. No it’s seven, Shaks also off the bench. The subs had no mercy.
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PG
That’s a pertinent and thought provoking piece. Thanks
George
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Anicoll
I’m on a similar page to you on this issue. It’s the journey that counts, it’s when we set off for Ithaca, let’s hope our journey is a long one….http://youtu.be/1n3n2Ox4Yfk
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Loic Remy is fucked and Drogba can’t play this week-end. That leaves Chelsea with a striker who is less proven than Yaya Sanogo. Mourinho out.
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George
A passionate post… from the heart.
What defines a Arsenal supporter is very difficult to define. Take me for example, I’ve supported the club for 50 years, a bit of an ‘in and out supporter’. Sometimes passionate and going to matches but sometimes unable or unwilling to give full support. But I tell you what, at the moment I’m unable to get to the Emirates to see a game, circumstances and more often lack of money. But I’m now putting away a bit of cash to get to London next year and to go to the Emirates for my very first time.
Life is becoming shorter each day and my dream is to get to the new stadium and see a match before it’s too late. I’ve never ever wavered in my support for the Arsenal, no matter who the manager has been. And if we were to employ Mourinho (vomit)…. I probably would still support them. No, not probably, I would support them, 100%.
We’ve been lucky to never see the Arsenal relegated, also having Wenger in charge for 18 years has skewered our view of the club. He is the greatest manager that we’ve ever had but a time will come when things change and we roll with the punches. Don’t ever think that you may decide to support the club because of a change of manager or management, for me it’s unthinkable.
Well, there’s my rant, just got back from the bar and well pissed. That’s my two pennies worth. [banned drunken grin]
I love you all xxxx
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*decide to (not) support the club…. hic
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It was this very same Wars of the Roses that helped me find my way to the Positively site. I was new to Twitter and online Arsenal then, and followed just about anyone, the Yorkshire Gunner being one such.
George’s post was just about the first intelligent Arsenal offering I had read and I remember being pleased to find it. I also remember assuming that the author was probably a young University student such was his idealism and willingness to embrace ethical experiments!
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A very interesting and useful article documenting time wasting during the game against Hull
http://untold-arsenal.com/archives/38560
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George,
I do not use twitter and do not know the other party (ies) involved, but from the information in your Post, I understand what was going on, in a general way.
The inquisitor was clearly asking a hypothetical question — or put another way ‘a loaded question’, as you said, but seemingly in an unconstructed, and aggressive manner to discomfit or antagonise you, and designed to channel you into a restrictive ‘yes or no’ type of response, however many caveats you may have advanced.
You generously described the question as ‘fair’, but I suspect it was anything but.
These sort of questions are usually a prelude to a heated and pointless debate, as whatever the recipient answers (you in this case) he can be pilloried, or his answer deliberately misconstrued, because the intention of the questioner is obviously that of entrapment.
The facts as you have outlined them above, seem to depend on the entirely false assumption that Wenger is the club, and the corollary of that is that the club is Wenger.
Clearly this is a nonsensical premise as the club, founded 128 years ago, is far more than any single individual, who in any event only inhabits his position with the club for a very short time, in the great scheme of things, and if the questioner describes himself as a fan he would know that.
Therefore trying to solely link the current manager to your love and support of the club is tendentious at best and laughable at worst. [OK, I am being kind with the last part.]
The most clear cut response to these type of questions, dependent on the relationship of the parties involved, is to say that you do not have the time or inclination to answer a worthless hypothetical question based on a pre-fabricated and ridiculous assumption.
QED
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anicoll,
I am a little confused by your 8:58 p.m. comment;
— “Can you imagine the opportunities for the über bloggers to tell the club what it is doing wrong and how the club should be run, the players should be managed, who should be signed and sold after a few mid table seasons ?????”
Don’t they already?
[God, the temptation to ‘smiley’ after that is great – but maybe I will turn out to be a great comedian for my forswearing such punctuation! Even if I don’t want to be!]
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They have no concept of the huge advisory opportunities that mid table mediocrity would confer Henry, no Europe, not even on Thursdays, that relentless failure to be even considered as an outside prospect for a league title and at the very best to be known as a “good Cup Team”.
The shrewd uberblogger could demand new signings week after week, mass cutting of deadwood, new managers three times a season, new coaches, new directors of football, a whole new board, protests, marches, boycotts, he could even show his arse to Stan at the AGM !
It is a glorious future Henry – embrace the fire
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Ah, I see now, anicoll, the current malaise evident even as we are seen today as a top four team still with everything to play for, would be as nothing in a hypothetical future filled with mediocrity, such as is experienced by the Totteringhams of this world.
[laughs his ass off!]
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A brush with relegation Henry – that is the test
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Were these guys around in 1913?
My own pet beef, is when Arsene is called ‘stupid’ and a ‘fool’ or ‘deluded’, and this about a man with an engineering degree from the University of Strasbourg, and a Masters degree in economics, swell as speaking fluently in French, German and English and also can speak comprehensively in Italian, Spanish and Japanese.
I understand he also holds 11 personal awards earned during his time in football, and is recognised by his fellow managers for the great impact he has had on the Premier League.
Yup, a stupid and deluded fool, indeed — I don’t think.
And what have the people who make these derogatory comments got to show us? Yep, I thought so.
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Well to be fair Henry one of them has a brass ring through his nose and dresses like a pirate – neither of which even Arsene can match.
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I’ve been following this blog for few months. I never felt disappointed. I’ll read the posts initially, then I’ll wait few hours for posts to generate comments before the 50 cut-off for next page, only to return for the next 50. For fear of missing out since I can’t go back to older comments (it goes back to prior post). I always save all pages. Cut a long story short. I felt I just had to acknowledge the brilliance of this post, and all the comments thereafter. The wobs hv nothing on you guys. The insights, perspectives and chuckles are invaluable (that banned smiley I always read about, would’ve been here). I salute you guys.
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this site needs a forum page.
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even without the 46 missing players weve still put out a good side and decent bench apparently the a couple of wobs displaying banners have been punched again. Anyway the team could give Arsene a very happy birthday COYG
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seemingly some knobs have an anti Wenger banner at the game tonight. Bad enough for idiots in the media to run Wenger replacement stories today of all days, AW birthday, but for petty little idiots to bring a wenger out banner to the game is beyond the pale.
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Anderlecht Arsenal
I am ready
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arsene will do well to sub monreal in the second half. we cant afford any risk of second yellow in this game.
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Not our smoothest particularly in he final third, doing fine though, Sanchez as usual the best player on the pitch, step up 5% and they will crack
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anicoll5 – Gibbs was our best player. Sanchez shines but only in fits and starts.
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Fucking sage
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Yaaaaaaasassaassss
Brush my old boots
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Wow! Get in! Gibbs and Lukas saving the Arsenal’s blushes.
Happy birthday AW!!
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Did I ever say how much i like Plodders?
I admit he can be seen to plod about at times. Not the sharpest. Not the greatest movement. But he can finish!
He came to Arsenal already having lost the notional LW starting berth to the likes of Schurle, Goetze and eventually Ozil, never a top top top player, but he has one in two from there for the national team, the world champions. Not bad! A signing made before the new revenues kicked in. Unfortunately that seriously bad tear did for any hopes of getting the minutes and cementing a CF role for Germany or Arsenal, but on the plus side he didn’t need surgery.
And he’s still a handy player. Very handy indeed!
Our plodders.
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The referee let that Tielmanns kid commit at least six crucial fouls. There should have been at least three Anderlecht midfielders on a yellow.
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one of the most frustrating games ive seen for ages. Going forward we were awful and I really cant see how sanchez was deemed to have a good game. He looks like the last couple of games his been trying to hard and trying to win it on his own. the amount of times he ignored overlaping players, tried to take players on and lost it. Sometimes the genius is in playing the simple ball at the right time. He certainly wasnt the only one and when he did pick out a pass they were often sublime. Maybe the biggest problem of our injuries is the decision making of the passes in the final third. Anyway ARSENAL win so on to the next.
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What a wretched performance. What is wrong with this team?
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The referee made this game a lot tighter than it should have been. Every time we put three passes together or we broke, there was an Anderlecht player ready to step in with a body check or a trip. It took an Anderlecht player cursing at the ref to finally give them a booking. Otherwise, they would have walked away with no bookings at all.
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I didn’t see the game – (working late) but I’m glad for the win for Arsene’s birthday, especially given the makeshift nature of the team and the young goal keeper.
I know what you mean about Sanchez, a_or_b – when he is on form those are great qualities that often produce good outcomes. But when it’s not working he does sometimes try to do too much on his own to the detriment of the collective.
Based on a comment I read from Jack, I wonder if the team were caught in two minds – between attacking and defending in order to protect the inexperienced goal keeper? Was that how it looked to you?
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Gains I did not notice the referee
What referee
Where was the referee
I have no idea why you think the win tonight was down to the referee
It was down to us
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