I was asked a simple and fair question on twitter some time ago by Andy Wood @yorkshiregunner .
“Tell me George, will you still support Arsenal when Arsene leaves?”
(As people continue to misquote my reply here again is the blog I wrote about it)
Now I understand that it was a snide question, a loaded question, designed to suggest that Arsene was more important to me than the club. I knew that before I answered with this:
Not for 100% sure. It would be hard to think I won’t. But I could stop. It’s like a marriage for me, not a family. If you follow?”
This of course was immediately interpreted to mean: “I will stop supporting if Arsene leaves.” Just as I had anticipated!
People then started screaming that one’s support for the club should be unconditional. “ARSENAL TILL I DIE!!”
And all the other soundbites people use.
Then they saw fit to state the obvious with gems like:
“No one is bigger than the club.”
No shit Sherlock, I had missed that.
As the Twitter exchange continued, I tried to explain that I could not guarantee always supporting the club, because if it changed into something different to that I was in love with, it would no longer be my club.
This concept seemed beyond the comprehension of a few, and some claimed that NOTHING could make them withdraw their support. Ever.
There’s an irony here, in case you hadn’t already spotted it …
So I came up with the most outrageous scenario I could think of, just to test their ‘position’ and asked if they would still support the club if the following occurred:
The club is bought by the English Defence League and all our players are sold, only white heterosexuals are allowed to play for the club. Do you still support?
Almost every right thinking person would say:
“No, it’s a stupid scenario, but no.”
My point being that ALL support is conditional. It’s just the conditions that are required to be met are different, and they vary from person to person.
What some people fail to understand is that “the club” means different things to different people.
My definition of “the club” includes the playing style, its class, history and integrity. The manager, board and players are a large part of that. The whole ethos of the club is what I regard “the club” to be.
Someone told me that “the club” to him was the badge, and that is what he supported. He didn’t mention whether the badge in question was cotton or man-made, so I reserved my judgement on him.
But, nonetheless, for him, the definition of the club was different.
My main point in all of this is that regardless of your personal definition of what the club – or anything you have fallen in love with – is, if that thing you fell in love with, changes to the degree where they or it becomes something or someone you would never have originally fallen for, then it is ENTIRELY possible to fall back out of love.
And this patently includes, even, one’s own chosen football club.
Now, if you are happy to support a club, fuelled by petro-dollars, managed by a hoof-ball specialist or filled with players like Barton, Suarez, Terry, Savage, Cole and Rooney – then great. But I would find it hard to continue that support, ultimately, even if that club was my beloved Arsenal.
It would be a gradual deterioration of the relationship between me and the club, but given the perfect (and frankly unlikely) storm, I COULD stop supporting.
There has been a lot of “I want my Arsenal back” going around in recent times.
Well, I personally want to keep THIS one.
These people that claim to ‘want their Arsenal back’ are effectively saying this current Arsenal is not “their” club.
Effectively, they’ve withdrawn their support already.
This is evidenced by their relentless attacks on the club and it’s staff – on Twitter, in blogs, on radio phone-ins etc. Those individuals who have given up their season ticket have clearly withdrawn their support. They are, as a result, no longer proper pucka Gooners are they?
The anger evident in their remarks is quite possibly driven by the pain they are feeling from losing their love for the club.
Well, maybe they ARE still Gooners.But they have simply come to a point where their support has been withdrawn. Do they watch on TV instead? Or has that been given up too? Have they stopped reading the papers? Do they no longer talk about Arsenal?
If they are still Gooners, it’s clear that bit-by-bit they are losing – or have lost – their love for the club as the conditions that led them to support in the first place are no longer seemingly evident.
For THEM, at least.
Now people can say that they are better fans than me because they have supported longer, spent more money, attended more games, live in the area of the ground or because nothing could stop them supporting. I won’t argue.
I certainly won’t care what they think either.Because they can claim all day long that they are the ‘real’ supporters of the club. But the reality, actually, is that they are drifting away from the club with every attack they launch.
***
Finally someone said:
“Morals in football are bollocks.”
To which I replied:
“Morals are only ever bollocks to those without them.”
I however ,am the last person to judge people on their morals.That does not mean they are any less important.
Positively Arsenal 
the unremarkable 70′s and 80′s.
pepper in your mouth!!! shame on you to show such disrespect to the unprecedented heights we were experiencing as a football club back then.
LikeLike
You guys have had your differences. For whatever reasons. I’m not going to take any sides in all that, I wish people would just say nothing to needlessly antagonise. Dukey is cool though, he’s only taking the piss, it’s his way, you know that as well as anyone. I always like the cut of your jib George, and by and large I agree with you. Not always mind you. Same with Yogi.
Anyway it’s late and this old sod needs his beauty sleep.
G’night you barmy bastards.
LikeLike
i mean the stupid one who gets into fights and gets slapped all the time walks around studios drunk pretending the hardman…
LikeLike
heh george ive just read your twitter discussion with one andy wood ….celebrating our only ever goal in a champions league final? say what you hypocrite? we had to cheat for it? well look at that…the mighty arsenal needing fake free kicks in finals….not like the old days when we won the finals with 6 goals difference … does he mean the final where we were left to play with ten men from minute 13 ? i take it andy wood takes his hat off to fergie for winning with a pinball ricoche in minute 93 and another one cause a donkey slipped….the honourable way. like mourinho with 7 goalkeepers and 67 fouls per half….tactics ..muahaa
LikeLike
youre all sleeping?
LikeLike
Haha hunter,
I knew that would catch some fish.
Point is we were basically mediocre for most of 20 years, and add some old school managers and less than stellar ambition.( I know, work with me here!).
We all know the club achievements from 1971 to 1989, but by crickey there was a lot of dross in the lows.
georgaki’s video link reminded me of how much this club has evolved for the better in the last 8 years, even without tin cups.
remember, it usually takes the CL finalist or recent winner to knock us out of that, we will get a decent run soon.
The Best is yet to come.
LikeLike
So to cover George’s questions:
Did i support the Arsenal before AW?
Yes.
Was it as good a club?
Not since the ’30’s.
Would i support Arsenal when Wenger eventually leaves?
yes.
With the same passion?
er, depend on the new manager and whether we behave in The Arsenal Way.
so results are irrelevant?
no, but being evil is relevant, I’m happy if we had to permanently revert back to to 1-0 to the Arsenal, as long as we stay classy.
What happens if an utter shitehole buys the club?
All bets are off. You will see me in a black scarf and bin liner fairly fucking pronto.
LikeLike
Fins,
Arsene Wenger’s having a party!
Bring your vodka and your ch@rlie!
of course, neverbtouchnthebstuff.
LikeLike
George,
I think most folk missed a deep irony in you twitter debate:
as you said, it was a trap for the AFC whateva crowd, as a lot of these tools are the ones who a giving only conditional support to the club at the moment.
“Wenger used to be good but he lost it…..
Ill give him one more year……
I’m Arsenal till I die……”
Fuck them George, you nailed their hypocrite asses.
LikeLike
Harry @11:40
Aw, don’t go, Harry. We need you here, too. You do a right good impression of Switzerland.
LikeLike
Hunter @11:10
Did you just dis Oasis? Uh oh. Wait til Mel sees that…
LikeLike
oh i thought you all left and was scouting the youtube for a tune to turn into arsenal chant…exploring my creative side…. preparing for the 13-14 title hunting season…higuain or no higuain we are going for it ..ryo is back
LikeLike
ha dc yes i know i could get misunderstood but i dont care i do it on purpose. emphasis is good to remind a few that yes indeed what we have now compared to what we used to is…incomparable
Adjective
in·com·pa·ra·ble
/inˈkämp(ə)rəbəl/
Without an equal in quality or extent; matchless.
Unable to be compared; totally different in nature or extent
so i guess we ALL agree then.
LikeLike
yes alabama i find their music cheap…..i only listen to serious music you know
00.20 / 00.53 / 1.24 – a young vicente del bosque before the taverns and la vita bella…heh we all gotta start from somewhere…
LikeLike
Hunter, dude, I wish you could see that you don’t have to disrespect Arsenal’s past to be excited about its future. I’m a new fan, and I would never dream of putting down the Arsenal of the past. I wouldn’t want to offend my new friends here, many of whom have been supporting this great club for decades. I know most of the time you’re just taking the piss, but do try to maintain a little respect, okay? It’s not helping your argument. I’m not expecting you to change your style. You are who you are, and your passion for the club is evident and admirable. But Arsene Wenger is a great manager, and you can argue that point plenty without having to insult the club’s past. Not saying you can’t like today’s version better, if that’s your preference. (I personally can’t make a comparison, never having seen a pre-Wenger team play.) Just a friendly suggestion that you do indeed catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Now, carry on, I’ll get my coat. (nod to Harry).
LikeLike
Hunter
Your home club Panathinaikos? So can you translate my pseudonym for our fellow Positivistas?…..
LikeLike
I am certain people support a club because of its culture/identity or location/community.
The second has been less ambiguous in history, built around community and family traditions but is torn asunder by a fast-changing “sense of belonging” that is being rapidly deconstructed by the impact of the digital/TV brave new world and corporate power (Shotta’s excellent insights into the Manchester United issues being a good example of the contradictions and tensions arising). Both are obviously and essentially collective, not individualistic, formulations (although our minds tell us the latter, it is usually not, we are “part of”). The first is more interesting for me for many reasons, I am not London born, linked, based nor does it reflect, for me, much sense of community except in its diversity that includes many Africans, but that is all pretty tenuous.
Why do 2 million Africans support Arsenal? It’s a good question. Why do I see Arsenal shirts every single day in Harare? (pirated, not sold under license). There are few if any commercial links driving a support base (as in Asian and American markets for club knick-knacks and other revenue fuelled by modern day football branding). There are no obvious short term advantages to supporting Arsenal (as with ManU and Chelsea support, and latterly City), that is the likelihood of perennial entitlement, good fortune and dripping, drooling media coverage which also reaches our distant foggy ears.
In my personal experience, most Africans Arsenal fans support Arsenal for FOOTBALL. The underlying assumption is Arsenal play football, have done, always do, will continue to do all things being equal and nobody and nothing can take that away. 95% or more of African support came with the Wenger era, with Kanu, with Henry, with Bergkamp. When an African says Arsenal “play football” it means “the dream of what football is supposed to be, and can be, ah, the beautiful artistry and spontaneity of life, the memories, the fun, the laughter, the inspiration, the skill and possibility of it all”. So, it’s about cultural identity. When Arsenal fail to achieve these lofty intangible (cultural) aspirations, fans are deeply critical, often technically specific about it but it is “about” the dream. Our sense of entitlement is not trophy-based, although we wouldn’t mind a few because we are the best team and our time will come, we know. We are patient.
If Arsenal “became” a Chelsea, generally regarded as spoilt brat team in these parts, 50% of the African support would whither in a year or two, 75% in five years. They have so little sense of culture or cultural identity. They don’t make us smile at all.
LikeLike
What Arsenal under Wenger has built will last a very, very long time, like the stadium, if Arsenal keep their side of the social contract with its fans, that this emerging culture of how football is played remains the Arsenal-way. Play football and all the abundance in the world keeps flowing like a river; play celebrity football, Stoke kick-person, tap-in ball, head-ball, buy-a-trophy ball, shit-ball, or any other kind of game, and the game is over.
It’s about Tomas receiving so fast in the middle after an excellent interception (probably Ramsey), wonderful counter attack, turning, beating, acceleration, three steps, feint that way by Giroud, and then the most extraordinarily weighted outside-footed through-ball that Theo, starting far behind his marker, takes perfectly at a fantastic gallop running 25 metres, he turns slightly inside, the angle opens, desperate lunge by the defender, keeper bristling, arms akimbo, ready to spring, 25 metre diagonal front foot shot, low, hard, on the ground, far post, keeper’s fingers caress the ball, slightest deflection, not enough, inside the far post, by an inch, Theo flying now, arms outstretched, Tomas has that smile, and way over on left corner flag the team drown Theo in team happiness. Back in a music bar in Harare a week later Ish walks past and says “Man, did you see that pass”. And without even knowing which game, I know he means “that pass”.
LikeLike
Another superb piece by ZimPaul….I’ve felt that the popularity of Arsenal globally has increased dramatically for the reasons you describe, the beauty of the game they play. And that is down to our manager….
LikeLike
alabamagooner at 2:09 am – Good points all round. Is anybody listening?
LikeLike
ZimPaul knows.
LikeLike
hey alabama i see what you mean but the disrespect people have shown to wenger and the arsenal of the last 16 years is inexcusable and some deserve to be reminded of our real status before him and we were never big or have any classy elite prestige and iso quality as we have since wenger. this class they all like to bask about is wenger’s….the arsenal he found was completely classless..drunks and posers and thugs …but thats what the cultuire on the game here is all about..this is what they prefer….
you see when these same jerks have seen seaman getting lobbed from 50 meters out in the saragosa final in the dying seconds of e.t ..then its a bit rich to see the same jerks complaining about chesney.
when these same jerks have seen wright and henry miss sitters in important games its a bit rich to complain about our youngsters not killing games
one of the biggest disappointments for me was when we let that blue smurfs kick us out of europe in our best ever season….. do they remember it wa pires vieira henry gilberto that fucked that up? do they? hehee…no they dont but they always like to remind the young and inexperienced who were not at the invincibles level that they were soft and not good enough…….
=====
zimpaul : ” When an African says Arsenal “play football” it means “the dream of what football is supposed to be, and can be, ah, the beautiful artistry and spontaneity of life, the memories, the fun, the laughter, the inspiration, the skill and possibility of it all”. So, it’s about cultural identity.”
this is a new cultural identity though and more universal and international than local. you are spot on…but this “arsenal play football” is something wenger brought to the club…it didnt exist before. thats the way i see it. before him we played rugby style….
its like…. before we were at level 4 ( out of 10) and wenger has brought us to level 8 and our fans want the old arsenal back of level 4 ..it is totally absurd.
gp pyrovolitis is ..shooter…sniper..gunner…aha yes i found it now…gunner!!!!
LikeLike
Yes Alabama, good points.
However I didn’t enjoy being compared to…Switzerland. Fer crying out loud.
As the Orson Welles ad-lib went:
“In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed – they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo Da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love and five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock”
Switzerland. I mean, really.
LikeLike
Hunter13
Spot on……but some bastard already took my name ‘George’ so I needed to find another for my gravatar, hence Georgaki…..
LikeLike
Hunter13
Do you have Hellenic roots?
LikeLike
yep geo. thats correct i do have the blood of spartans 🙂 …. lol..
LikeLike
That explains why you are so scary….so are your folks from Laconia?
LikeLike
nah im not scary man…im skinny like kanu and patrick….i just call some things as they are…it might be the effect of the words that gives that impression..lol.. ..granfather was peloponese and grandmother cretan (father side) ..but ive never looked at the tree to see the origins ..not that fussed? you ? …. london greek?
LikeLike
Whilst I definitely agree that Arsenal under Wenger are better than before, we still achieved some successes notably the 91 season only losing one game that season to Chelsea before they became the financially doped entity they are today, so trying to remain unbeaten was here before Wenger.
I wonder how players such as Paul Davis & David Rocastle would have progressed under Wenger’s tutelage? Fantastic talents that they are/were.
I think Arsenal wanted to move in this direction even before Wenger came on board, there was talk of Cruyff coming in.
It would be interesting for us to know who was in the running for the job back then? Does anyone have that information, did PHW or D,Dein ever say anything? Who else was interviewed?
The only people I can see who could have emulated what Wenger & Arsenal have been doing is Cruyff or Bianchi, Kovac was to old as was Rinus himself.
Dragan Stojkovic has been likened to Wenger by the man himself.
I think people need to remember the influence that Rinus Michels had on others such as Cruyff, Kovac, Van Gaal and Wenger himself. Bergkamp who we all know played at both Ajax & Arsenal stated “the only place I experienced total football was at Highbury” as surprising as that may seem. Even Thierry Henry wears Cruyff’s number on his back.
So to say Arsenal would not be where we are today because of Wenger, the same can be said if Michels never played football for Ajax and then went into management.
I just wanted to highlight the evolution of this philosophy, and to state that Wenger was influenced but is also intelligent enough to expand on a theory and make it even better.
I do feel sorry for the other managers, now that Arsene can keep a settling squad together.
LikeLike
adam i pay a lot attention to the hows of any achievement. trying ot remain unbeaten in sly manners is not the same as beating everyone in front of you with 3 and 4 goals of difference. if there was talk of cruyf joining in then perhaps its an admission that change was necessary and the old ways were outdated. one guy pulled it off though with his football.
the evolution and philosophy of those greats is something wenger is part of …arsenal as a club was never part of that in fact the polar opposite..but it became such with wenger…will is one thing..doing it is another. the way i see it he is the one who taught arsenal to think in such ways…
LikeLike
Ah, Hunter, I never thought I’d convince you anyway. It’s just that it feels a bit to me like being invited to someone’s home and then making fun of all their antique furniture. It goes against my genteel Southern nature. Statements like “the arsenal he found was completely classless” just seem over the top. I’m sorry, but if I had been a fan then, that would insult me. And I’m just pointing out that in your admirable zeal to defend our great manager from the “enemy”, you might be wounding a few friends in the process.
Ah well. It could be worse, right? You could have insulted dear Harry by comparing him to Switzerland. My apologies, Harry. (banned smiley thingy)
LikeLike
and in the end of the day my beef aint with the old arsenal but those who insist on presenting the old arsenal as better than the one we have the last 16 years..thats all…its more to do with smashing the perception of some fools rather than directly assaulting the club….but yeah many have told me i go about it the wrong way …. 🙂
LikeLike
Hunter13
Yes, London Greek. Born in Alexandra Park Maternity home (doesn’t exist now). Family home in Hornsey, 3 miles from Highbury. Mum from Samos, Dad from Cyprus.
LikeLike
im not wounding anyone…most understand the general meaning of what i want to say…some chose not to so as to have a footing to insult and degrade. to call me a lesser fan and such…. i dont bite the bait…hehee… i know im hitting the right spos…the inconvenient truths which means i was there to see it which puts to bed the myth about me only following wenger…. i love this game..keep them guessing.
LikeLike
I love the Island of Samos been there about 5 times. My favourite destination. Small world.
LikeLike
alexandra park? ha…im moving to highgate next week..somewhere below muswell hill… i can walk to emirates but its a bit of a killer…..need to roll three minimum to walk there.
LikeLike
Hunter, the point I was subtly trying to make was that Arsenal wanted change and to hire Wenger was a very brave thing to do.
LikeLike
There you go, Hunter. There’s the point you were trying to make. Just be careful with those smiley things. Now you’ve really gone and breached blog protocol.
LikeLike
samos? wow small world indeed….have friends there too.
LikeLike
im leaving in two hours for sifnos and then wednsday im driving up to london to start work on monday…….odyssey…. but the season ticket is in london waiting for me. thats my carrot… have a good weekend you all…i will be nowhere near a computer for at least two weeks i reckon….you will miss me i know 😛 …dont cry too much… raise aim fire …BOOM!
LikeLike
Georgaki-pyrovolitis, Im originally from Hampstead, later a Grahaem park bod for awhile before returning to Muswell hill. Now in Hertfordshire.
What schools did you attend?
LikeLike
Safe travels, Hunter. I’m jealous of you and your season ticket. (smiles)
LikeLike
Hunter can’t help himself, he enjoys waving a red rag in front of three legged dehorned bulls that would prefer to wallow their bullshit. Coming back from a points deduction to beat the Evil Manc is the stuff of which legends are born (and then venerated and idolised).
Hunter have you seen this film? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5o3lxJax4I
A poem written with love and affection for bygone era, written in 2001. Almost a prophecy for some managers who came later. I suppose Ricky Tomlinson must be an anglophobe too!
A very, very funny film.
Modern F1 drivers look at cars from the 70’s and say to the oldies like Lauda, “no thanks! After you, Sir”. People cannot deny that we are in another era in Football (where AFC had to cut their cloth for a bit it seems), that is absurd.
LikeLike
You can all throw rotten tomatoes at me if I have jinxed this potential transfer:
Zimpaul,
A video of Higuain becoming an Argentine legend at the age of nineteen. My favourite bits in the video are the shots of the awesome crowd, and the coach kicking the football. Goals are not too bad either.
He went on to score goals that clinched la Liga. Twice. Obviously the Madrid fans quite like him for that kind of thing. Get in there Arsene. GET IN!
LikeLike
Adam Brogden
Campsbourne Primary school, Nightingale Lane N8 and St. David’s CoE which faced onto Hornsey, High Street. I believe the building is now St. Mary’s Primary school. St. David’s no longer exists. It was merged with another girls school and is now called St. David’s and St. Katherine’s and is located behind the shops directly opposite the old St. David’s. All this is just beyond Priory Park, heading toward Turnpike Lane. My mother still lives in Linzee Road, off Priory Road almost directly opposite the main entrance to Priory Park (where the tennis courts are).
My mother was born in the village of Vourliotes in Samos, described as one of the most beautiful villages on the island…and it is….have you visited the ‘Catarachtes’ (the little waterfalls) near Karlovasi?…
LikeLike
If any other Positivistas are going to the Emirates Cup we should try to meet…..
LikeLike
Blimey Georgaki – I was born in the Alexandra Maternity Home too – in August 58 – you must have been in the cot next door – I was brought up on Ferme Park Road until I went away to college at 18 – My Mum and Dad, long gone now, later moved to a flat on the corner of Priory Road and Ashford Avenue just up the road from your Mum’s place and next to the park.
LikeLike
anicoll5
You must have forgotten the last time we discussed this! Anyway, you entered the world some 4 months before me (Jan 59). I had a school friend, David Sewell who lived in Ashford Avenue. We remained friends even after I persuaded him that hamsters eat sultana’s and he tried one from the floor of the cage. I remember him biting into it and saw a bright yellow interior. It wasn’t as fruity as he expected…boys will be boys…..
LikeLike
Must be having a ‘senior’ moment ! We were obviously contemporaries in that part of North London – I spent most of my formative teenage years in Crouch End and Hornsey Rise although later on I used to drink in the Top House and the Hornsey Tavern
Still a few Apaches who have never moved off the reservation that I am in touch with – place changed a lot
LikeLike
Did you walk through Priory Park and join in to any number of ‘pick up’ football matches? Back then there must have been 3-4 games being played on the various greens. Just threw some jumpers down for goals and away we went! My lot usually played on the first green opposite the bowling green with the flats on Ashford Ave on the other, the tennis courts at one end and the paddling pool at the other…We called that spot ‘Little Wembley’ and very good footballers we were too…..
LikeLike