I was asked a simple and fair question on twitter some time ago by Andy Wood @yorkshiregunner .
“Tell me George, will you still support Arsenal when Arsene leaves?”
(As people continue to misquote my reply here again is the blog I wrote about it)
Now I understand that it was a snide question, a loaded question, designed to suggest that Arsene was more important to me than the club. I knew that before I answered with this:
Not for 100% sure. It would be hard to think I won’t. But I could stop. It’s like a marriage for me, not a family. If you follow?”
This of course was immediately interpreted to mean: “I will stop supporting if Arsene leaves.” Just as I had anticipated!
People then started screaming that one’s support for the club should be unconditional. “ARSENAL TILL I DIE!!”
And all the other soundbites people use.
Then they saw fit to state the obvious with gems like:
“No one is bigger than the club.”
No shit Sherlock, I had missed that.
As the Twitter exchange continued, I tried to explain that I could not guarantee always supporting the club, because if it changed into something different to that I was in love with, it would no longer be my club.
This concept seemed beyond the comprehension of a few, and some claimed that NOTHING could make them withdraw their support. Ever.
There’s an irony here, in case you hadn’t already spotted it …
So I came up with the most outrageous scenario I could think of, just to test their ‘position’ and asked if they would still support the club if the following occurred:
The club is bought by the English Defence League and all our players are sold, only white heterosexuals are allowed to play for the club. Do you still support?
Almost every right thinking person would say:
“No, it’s a stupid scenario, but no.”
My point being that ALL support is conditional. It’s just the conditions that are required to be met are different, and they vary from person to person.
What some people fail to understand is that “the club” means different things to different people.
My definition of “the club” includes the playing style, its class, history and integrity. The manager, board and players are a large part of that. The whole ethos of the club is what I regard “the club” to be.
Someone told me that “the club” to him was the badge, and that is what he supported. He didn’t mention whether the badge in question was cotton or man-made, so I reserved my judgement on him.
But, nonetheless, for him, the definition of the club was different.
My main point in all of this is that regardless of your personal definition of what the club – or anything you have fallen in love with – is, if that thing you fell in love with, changes to the degree where they or it becomes something or someone you would never have originally fallen for, then it is ENTIRELY possible to fall back out of love.
And this patently includes, even, one’s own chosen football club.
Now, if you are happy to support a club, fuelled by petro-dollars, managed by a hoof-ball specialist or filled with players like Barton, Suarez, Terry, Savage, Cole and Rooney – then great. But I would find it hard to continue that support, ultimately, even if that club was my beloved Arsenal.
It would be a gradual deterioration of the relationship between me and the club, but given the perfect (and frankly unlikely) storm, I COULD stop supporting.
There has been a lot of “I want my Arsenal back” going around in recent times.
Well, I personally want to keep THIS one.
These people that claim to ‘want their Arsenal back’ are effectively saying this current Arsenal is not “their” club.
Effectively, they’ve withdrawn their support already.
This is evidenced by their relentless attacks on the club and it’s staff – on Twitter, in blogs, on radio phone-ins etc. Those individuals who have given up their season ticket have clearly withdrawn their support. They are, as a result, no longer proper pucka Gooners are they?
The anger evident in their remarks is quite possibly driven by the pain they are feeling from losing their love for the club.
Well, maybe they ARE still Gooners.But they have simply come to a point where their support has been withdrawn. Do they watch on TV instead? Or has that been given up too? Have they stopped reading the papers? Do they no longer talk about Arsenal?
If they are still Gooners, it’s clear that bit-by-bit they are losing – or have lost – their love for the club as the conditions that led them to support in the first place are no longer seemingly evident.
For THEM, at least.
Now people can say that they are better fans than me because they have supported longer, spent more money, attended more games, live in the area of the ground or because nothing could stop them supporting. I won’t argue.
I certainly won’t care what they think either.Because they can claim all day long that they are the ‘real’ supporters of the club. But the reality, actually, is that they are drifting away from the club with every attack they launch.
***
Finally someone said:
“Morals in football are bollocks.”
To which I replied:
“Morals are only ever bollocks to those without them.”
I however ,am the last person to judge people on their morals.That does not mean they are any less important.
Positively Arsenal 
Plus there is a difference between rich patrons and caretakers who might hope their shares appreciate with success and corporate enterprise with global capital intending to make money from the club’s operation as well as its appreciation. Rich blokes but just of a different sort. The MU fans perceived a moral difference and acted on that. We might not see it the same and most MU supporters obviously didn’t.
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It is like most ethical questions Limestone – you ask yourself ‘what would I do’ or ‘what would I have done’ ?
I think it was an entirely commendable act from the group that set up FCUM most of whom were long term hard core United supporters from what I understand – and they have made a go of it – new ground built and on their way slowly up the pyramid
I just don’t understand what they saw in the Glazers ownership that was so awful, or apparently awful
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Perhaps the MAN U fans were just fed up which the gross excesses of Premiership Football.And the Glaziers were just the straw that broke the Camels back?
Relationships tend to break down in stages.Not always,but mostly
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Hey Coll,I typed that before I saw your last post.Not only am I a genius,but a physic too
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Have read your blog and/or followed on Twitter for years but thought I’d take the opportunity to voice my support. I agree with everything you said. Cheers
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And very very rich ……………….. !
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I think a little perspective is needed on this subject, a football club is an entity as horrible as that sounds and is subject to change over time.
The overriding factor in change is the people involved within the club.
You have to ask yourself, do these custodians represent my own personal values, yes, a football club has come to that, when we invest our emotions into it, similar to how some ethnic groups still boycott many national companies due to past atrocities. You cannot deny history.
Also take into account the histories of past owners or companies that own football clubs and only you can decide if you wish to be associated.
Some clubs are unlucky enough to have people associated with them that have been convicted of crimes against humanity (genocide) but they remain supported and loved due to a certain disconnection and time past.
To use Pedantic Georges example of the EDL taking over the club and instilling its values on the club, that would be too much for most to comprehend because it has yet to happen and is viewed as impossible.
But no one has acknowledged that a lot worse has actually happened in history and that the football clubs involved still remain and enjoy support on a scale that beggars belief.
It is a subject that many are scared to confront but is valid none the less.
Some seem to skirt the issue when we have direct reference points from history to fall back on.
Everything in life is conditional. only you decide the conditions.
Sorry for waffling on.
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“Everything in life is conditional. only you decide the conditions.”
That is what I wanted to say.In fact I thought I had
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Sorry for coming across as repetitive.
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You didnt Adam ,top post mate
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So now this is “gooner hating blog” it seems.
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“Loves arsene, hates Arsenal”
It is such a transparent bullshit meme, and worthy of those who repeat it.
Some of us have been discussing people being priced out of football for years now, there are recoeds of those threads. I suppose we are fake fans too.
Frank’s description of the new stadium as Fizman’s Mauseleum was too funny (alas such humour seems beyond the most earnest ‘critics’) and even though George & Frank disagreed it would have been a thought of sorts that crossed a few minds last summer. Funny that. People disagreeing from this forum. I think George’s critics did not believe such stuff was allowed! Ah well, they are wrong. Again.
Ill try to meander back on thread here, sorry.
So, we know people are losing interest in the game. We know people are going to watch football in Germany, or down the leagues.
But George is wrong to consider such things happening in the game in our time.
Well, PG, you couldn’t ask for people to dig themselves into a bigger hole, overflowing with gr*t. Heh.
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If Gonzo is riding into town I’d like to hear Frank’s thoughts on events.
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da rapapim piripipom
vauxhaul / ferrari
pat rafter /federer
sausage / fillet
fishing trawler / ferretti yacht
iceland special forces / sas, navy seals
the guy in the pub doing magic tricks / david copperfield
robbie keanne / lionel messi
peter crouch / radomel falcao
homo sapiens / astronaut
truck driver / heart surgeon
cassette / blue ray hd
fiat / bmw
mauresmo / pfeifer
arsenal before wenger / arsenal with wenger
and wenger didnt have a base to build…he first had to remind a few that they are athletes and that this was a football club and not a pub anymore, then re-install the overall playing style/philosophy, ripped apart the previous training regimes and diets and introduced his own methods and schedules, redefined the targets of the team, the tactics, the roles within the squads, brought specialist players who could do what he wanted ( petit overmars vieira ), brought up youth, restructured the scouting system, installed a way of thinking that goes beyond the national bborders, think big act big kind of thing, prepared the club /team/layers to compete at the highest possible level ……..its not like he arrived at a place which had such tremendous organisation functioning efficiently from top to bottom that he had to fit in just like another employee doing a routine job -..more like the other way round…more like he took something which was dying and not only gave it life back but turned it into one of the most shocking and brilliant football institutions in europe, a point of reference of how clubs should be run and how clubs should work with their youth and academies and play the game properly and not like thugs. i dont understand how fans of ours refuse to admit we were a bit of a thuggish team before wenger….funny that…i guess its a lie then….
and oh if the old arsenal is about a toothless coke addict doing pint celebrations ( how crass and base , how befitting to the sub-cultured ..muahah ) and an alcoholic captain abandoning his team in the middle of a title defending season, and players cought in bars sniffing coke in toilets and gambling and an ian wright now with his lui vitton scarf and gold tooth and earring making money out of slagging off wenger and th eboard cause his son got rejected..dont know what he thought really..wasnt he the one who got fed up eating brocoli and had a fall out with wenger and left to benfica? how come he wanted his son to follow a coaching regime he had previously rejected as a player?…hmmmm funny ..i guess i prefer the rosicky class and elegance rather than the bling bling gangsta rappa boy with his hats and scarves givin it large to the cameras innit.. that fuckin rude shameless cunt…top club goalscorer once and makes a living slagging us off wherever and whenevr he can…i bet the young players at the club love him and what he says about them he has been very supportive after all ex player and legend and all…….
in the end of the day calling a coke addict a coke addict is realism. calling wenger a manager who doesnt know how to spend money or not knowing tactics is not realism…… ooops bingo we hit the spot….fuck you joe !! and your boss 🙂
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We would all like to hear from Frank again.
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haha,Stop it ,your Lord and Master has spoken.
Anyway ,most of my friends are partial to a bit of Colombian marching powder
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One of the joys (if you are partial to bleach and stuff cut with other stuff) of the stadium being where it is is that on match days you can still see, occasionly, a gaggle of geezers having a casual snort off someone’s garden wall on their way to the ground.
You couldn’t do that on the North Circular!
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atari vs playstation
hahaaa
nhs vs nasa
…wenger the alchemist turned arsenal from category d drug to a class a quality drug.. 🙂
burgers vs gourmet
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ryo is back too
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and if its pointless to compare eras then who are these jerks demanding their old arsenal back..what are they comparing this era with to express such disatisfaction ? the past glories when we owned madrid and milan ? them glory years they mean? them times when universities of football like ajax were checking on grahams arsenal and that superb regime to see how its done? that era they mean? oh hold on i remember now how our pars , the bayrens the milans the juventus and barcelonas of europe would fear that north london gang and its miraculous football……… i think ill keep hitting that spot…. straight to the g …bullseye…i dont have a dartboard in my kitchen for nothing you know ..typical anglophobe i am… 🙂 hahaaaaaaaa durumpupum parapapam
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Mad as a box of frogs that boy is
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mad for sure..but with reason 🙂
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What the fuck is Hunter on?
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arsenal
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you see not everyone turned out to be an henry ..such a shame arsene ….your standards are dropping old man..get out before you ruin the club..you were given a palace full of warrior kings and you turned it into classless sleezy dirty strip bar with ladyboys in a bangkok alley …in this establishment we only go for optimal seasons mister ..did you not read the memo left from the previous greats when you took office? get your act together ..sort it out… its 1st or nothing ..its how we grew up ..its what we are accustomed to throughout our history …. zzeezz !
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When I am fed up I shut my eyes and imagine a conversation between Hunter and Finsbury.
Then I smile.
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i am on irony and satire and mocking random haters …..
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You want to read up on a great manager? read up on the man Arsene replaced at Monaco. Some may recognise something similar in both men. Builders of institutions.
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hallo adam. nice to meet you what you mean kovats ..he managed my home club panathinaikos too…off course legend … didnt know he was at moncao too? thanks for that…oooo the glory of pana..puskas kovac and finals at wembley in 71 against cruyff s ajax..where was that big club arsenal again? muahahahaaa….oh that spot..that poor spot is getting pounded.. ( this last bit wasnt for you adam please dont get offended im just playing with some peoples minds…)
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european pedigree…tons of it ..after all arsenal did better in europe before that scientist from strassburg came over …
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Fall out of love with THE ARSENAL??? I hope I never see that day. Too painful to think about.
LOVE MY RED & WHITES!!!!!!
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Thanks God for the visionary board and manager. Same goes for the majority of our gentlemen players and fans worldwide.
Keep the faith. Dynasty around the corner…
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“Morals are only ever bollocks to those without them.“
Excellent post George and comments from too many others to count. I totally get where you are coming from and those who hauled you over the coals on Twitter are deliberately misunderstanding you for their own purposes. You fall in love over time and that you ‘could’ fall out of love is a reality that you have been brave enough to admit. Many a doomer has already fallen out of love, but won’t admit it. Comments I have read suggest that not only have they fallen out of love, but they actively hate the club and all it stands for. I hope it never comes to that for me, but since I can’t see the future, hope is all I’ve got.
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Hunter, yes that’s the man. one of the founders of Clairefontaine, brought youth into the French National side before their famous 82 side. If I read your comment correctly, yes he was manager of Ajax in 1971 as well, he replaced Michels (the inventor of total football), not bad to have on your CV. There does seem to be a small community of builders within the football industry but they are few and far between. We are lucky to have such a man.
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if anyone is brave enough to make it to 5 minutes you will see similarities in the method and attitude and philosphy with something closer to us….. the theme/object only changes..for him its music for someone else its football…vision and the guts to go for that vision.
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yes adam arsenal is lucky to have found him and i consider myself lucky to have lived at the times where he managed our club and experienced them all in full. privileged. the difference in what he inheritted and what he will leave behind is the kind of difference youd normally see at a club in a span of a century .. he has done it in 16 years…..doubles..european pedigree and 21st century nasa quality facilities… all with money he created for the club through HIS successes. without him we would be another liverpool/totenham …………………………………………………….without a plan…only wishes.
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And you’d need to be brave (insert smiley thang)
To quote Eno:
“Stockhausen was an example of a charismatic theoretician who inspired a lot of people but whose own work is generally unlistenable”
You’d have been better of posting some Miles Davis.
Jazz fusion and Stockhausen eh. On an Arsenal blog. Who’d have thunk it.
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whether the plan works or not is a different story and it also depends on many different things – one of them is fan support and we sucked at it big time. this all-out fallout between fans and manager is the most humiliating thing we have experienced as a club…disrespecting doubting and mocking the man who helped as switch from apes to professionals inside the house he built for us….. now thats heavy. at least he has a plan – a well thought out and defined plan…no bullshit….before him there was no plan. if all those experts with authority inside the club had any better plans they might as well have told him to fuck off since they knew better…they didnt though..they gave him the keys ….they know too. they saw that this guy was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too serious about his football. psychotic levels. such managers is like winning the lotto, when you find them you lock them in your team and let them do their thing.
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Oh you have come to visit us “goner haters” Harry?
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well yes but then again all fusion is unlistenable…highly technical geeks showing off what they can do and what sounds or combinations they can make…its more about atmosphere and sounds really….sure cant dance to that or listen to it while having a drink or a cigarette at the bar…. very elitist and geeky …
i went once to watch alan holdsworth live in 06 or 07 …alien…sick stuff…but yes totally unlistenable … technical gurus who have gone beyond the point of making melodies…they are in the core….
i want to read the biography of miles david..many have told me its a bomb of a book….
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now imagine that twat from oasis walking up to stockhausen and lecturing him about music……. its the same with wenger here…. ( insert smiley face) the oasis guy is no ralph vaughan williams…mc hammers and kenny rogers have nothing to say or teach to mozarts….
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I like Noel.I hope you are talking about Liam
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Now now George. Those words weren’t mine after all. And I think they were meant to be taken with a large pinch of salt.
It seems I’m frequently caught been a rock and a hard place with you guys. I don’t want to be part of some blog wars. I just try and get along with everyone best I can. Maybe I should stick to just reading the posts in future…
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H, Ian Carr did a seminal bio on Miles some years back, can’t recommend it enough.
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Dont be daft Harry.It was nothing to do with you.I was just letting you know I had been told about it.
But I did like being called “lord and master” it gave me an ego boost.Not sure it was meant as a complement though?
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Good night,
George,
I was watching that ‘debate’ on twitter, I don’t have an account so i couldn’t joint in,
Seemed like a bunch of your regular debaters were riling you.
so you haven’t supported the club since your were 2 years old? Hang you high!
Arsenal became a more attractive club with Bergkamp? Well that’s utter non gooner tastic(that’s ironic in case you were worried ),
Good on you George, keep defending the club, team and culture that AW has made us become, and this is from a 45 year old gooner who lived through the unremarkable 70’s and 80’s.
When and if AW ever leaves, I’ll always support AFC, but maybe not the next manager.
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